1960s on board launcher footage

[drpl]

While watching some documentaries on the 1960s US Space Programmes this weekend, a thought occurred to me about the footage captured on board rockets- the familiar one being the 1st stage jettison of the Saturn 5, showing the disconnection of the stage and then the inter-stage ring (hopefully someone will know what this means!)- this was taken inside the 2nd stage.<br /><br />Since the 2nd stage was never recovered, how did NASA get this footage back? It doesn't look like it was transmitted via video - the footage is too good and looks like 16mm color film. Transmitting color videotape, and then transferred onto film makes the resulting image grainy and fuzzy (a color kinescope in essence).<br />One idea I had was that there was a detachable camera pod, which were used by spy satellites in the 1960s.... does anyone know how this footage was retrieved?<br /><br />TIA<br /><br />Paul<br />

 

[rfoshaug]

I believe it was a small detachable camera pod with parachute, although I'm not certain.<br /><br />Those shots are really impressive to watch. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff9900">----------------------------------</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">My minds have many opinions</font></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Excellent question.<br /><br />If I had to guess, I'd have to say it was transmitted. Just as the Apollo 11 initial moonwalks were transmitted live. The footage shot from a camera in the S-II stage of the Saturn V could have been much clearer because of the proximity of the ascending rocket to KSC.<br /><br />The Saturn second stage would have followed a path similar to the shuttle in that the stage probably came down within a 600 by 100 mile footprint in the Indian Ocean. Atmospheric friction would have incinerated the stage and presumably the camera pod unless the pod were jettisoned right after interstage separation and recovered in the Atlantic a few hundred miles downrange. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[drpl]

Thanks for the replies!<br /><br />I don't think it would have been transmitted as this would require a video feed, and the images are definitely on film. Of course, its possible that the images were transmitted via video, and copied directly onto film, but this would leave artefacts which would give the source away; the sharpness would be degraded, the images would be fuzzy, the color would be smeared out etc. If you want an example, look at news footage from the 1970s. They were originally on VT, and then transferred to film, losing a lot of quality in the process. I imagine the VT would then be re-used due to cost.

 

[qso1]

Well, one thing I can count on. If I think it was done one way...I will be proven wrong LOL. But thats why I'm not an expert in this stuff and I just make sure I don't say outright what I think something might be. It just seemed to me that camera pods would have to be ejected right after imaging the interstage separation for the reasons I previously mentioned. However, your comments and S-Gs confirmation seals the deal for me. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[drpl]

Thanks for all your posts. I bet they wish they had Webcams in those days <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />btw, what kind of collection footprint in the ocean are we talking about for the camera pods? I recall one piece of footage which shows the CM leaving the third stage and then firing its (RCS?) thrusters, which starts to tumble back towards to the Earth. Was this camera pod ejected to be recovered at sea, or by the crew of the CM?

 

[halman]

newsartist,<br /><br />I have found the NASA website to be singularly frustrating to navigate. I know that the archives have immense amounts of data, and I see things that other people have pulled out of those archives, but I have very limited success finding them. I even have trouble finding something again that I had already discovered.<br /><br />Even though the Apollo missions were launched from the Cape, I would imagine that finding footage of stage seperation would be at Johnson Space Center, because the missions were manned. But the JSC archives seem to be seperate from the NASA archives, or, at least, so it seems. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

 

[davf]

I believe they lost the first set of cameras but were able to recover the second pair.<br /><br />The Spacecraft Films DVD on the Saturn V has the entire footage from both camera pods and ends just as you see the pods detach and start to slide back and away (or more accurately, the field of view does).<br /><br />The following is an excerpt from 'Stages to Saturn' which is available in online PDF form regarding first and second stage cameras.<br /><br /><b>Stages to Saturn </b> <br />http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4206/sp4206.htm<br /><br />(re: S-IC and S-II)<br /><font color="yellow">"The first two flight stages of the S-IC also carried visual instrumentation that yielded some unique and striking images. A pair of TV cameras covered the fiery environment of engine start and operation. The cameras were tucked away above the heat shield-safe from the heat, acoustic shock, and vibration of the open engine area-and the lenses were connected to serpentine lengths of fiber optic bundles, focused on the engine area, and were protected by special quartz windows. Fiber optic bundles also provided a field of vision into the LOX tank, with a pair of motion picture cameras using colored film to record behavior of the liquid oxygen in flight. The system offered a means to check on wave and sloshing motions in the huge tank, as well as the waterfall effects of LOX cascading off internal tank structures during the boost phase. Another pair of color motion picture cameras captured the spectacular moment of separation from the S-II stage. Twenty-five seconds after separation, the color cameras were ejected in a watertight capsule, attached to a parachute for recovery downrange in the South Atlantic". </font><br /><br />(Re: Saturn-I and -IB flights)<br /><font color="yellow"> "The camera capsules consisted of three sections: the lens compartment, with camera lens and a quartz viewing window; the combined camera and</font>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Thnaks for the info! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[davf]

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product!

 

[qso1]

Thanks for the info and links. Seems like the really unusual footage never gets public airing. I'll have to get those DVDs. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[drpl]

Thanks...I think the footage was in "For all Mankind" c.1989. Maybe my memory is wrong, but I recall the CM departing from the third stage, and after a few seconds, the curvature of the earth comes into view as, presumably, the 3rd stage starts its downwards trajectory (?) If so, I wonder how the camera pod was recovered without it burning up?

 

[drpl]

Knew I wasn't going mad - the staging sequence can found at http://history.nasa.gov/ap08fj/video/staging.mpg - its of the Apollo 6 test flight. The 3rd stage separation is at 1 minute 38 seconds, but doesn't include the shot of the earth coming into view.

 

[drpl]

Blast my eyes! I meant SERVICE module, not command module! <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" />

 

[MeteorWayne]

Wow thanks for that link!<br />We've got a great group here, and with research like that, you're a welcome addition. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[drpl]

Aw, thanks mate! You've got me blushing over my latte here! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[PistolPete]

I just saw the full video (I usually just see that 5 second excerpt on TV). It seems that there is a BIG gap between 1st stage sep, Interstage sep, and 2nd stage ignition. You'd think that they'd try to get those out of the way as soon as possible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><em>So, again we are defeated. This victory belongs to the farmers, not us.</em></p><p><strong>-Kambei Shimada from the movie Seven Samurai</strong></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Iv'e never heard the term ullage before. Can you elaborate? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"Iv'e never heard the term ullage before."</font><br /><br />Don't make things harder than they have to be. Dictionary.com is almost as much your friend as Google. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />ul-lage: <br /><br />1. the amount by which the contents fall short of filling a container, as a cask or bottle. <br />2. the quantity of wine, liquor, or the like, remaining in a container that has lost part of its contents by evaporation, leakage, or use. <br /><b>3. Rocketry. the volume of a loaded tank of liquid propellant in excess of the volume of the propellant; the space provided for thermal expansion of the propellant and the accumulation of gases evolved from it. </b><br /><br />Ullage burns provide an acceleration in direction 'X' such that the propellant settles in the oppsite direction 'Y' (i.e. where the pumps can send it to the thrusters).

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"Actually in engineering terms..."</font><br /><br />Luckily, with an MIS degree, I'm just a manager with delusions of computer savvy. I only speak pidgin engineering. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />P.S. For MeteorWayne:<br /><br /><i>pidgin: –noun <br /><br />1. an auxiliary language that has come into existence through the attempts by the speakers of two different languages to communicate and that is primarily a simplified form of one of the languages, with a reduced vocabulary and grammatical structure and considerable variation in pronunciation.</i> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[davf]

Wow! Count me in there too. I didn't know that about the ullage rockets missing on those launches. I love these little tidbits. Who is keeping track?<br /><br />I'm guessing that was part of the contribution to the increased performance thanks to the weight savings? I'm not sure I've ever seen them listed as such before...

 

[MeteorWayne]

I thought about looking it up, but wanted to make sure I got the particular application for this usage.<br />While the definition (3) does explain what ullage is, it doesn't specifically state the purpose is to bring the juice to the bottom of the tank.<br />I probably could have figured that out, however.<br /><br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>