3D imaging

PJay_A · Nov 2, 2008

I'm working on development of a 3D video technology that does not require glasses. I've so far been successful at achieving this by using mirrors and focused lenses to direct and route light from a single monitor display to either left or right eye and have successfully achieved holographic-looking full-color HD high frame rate video. The system requires that it's placed between the monitor display and the viewer.I was thinking of a better way that would be less messy by placing equipment in the speaker sets of a surround sound system. To achieve what I have in mind, I was wondering if it might be possible to exploit photon quantum mechanics and somehow influence the light to shift either to the left or right (without frontal mirrors and/or lenses). I did an experiment and got some strange results and wonder if I can exploit it. I sat in front of a TV and watched a program with a cat, placing the cat up to the TV and to my side. My vision from the side of the cat dimmed each time I hold the cat up. Might it be possible that the cat's observation of the TV caused TV light photons to gravitate to the cat?

DrRocket · Nov 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm working on development of a 3D video technology that does not require glasses. I've so far been successful at achieving this by using mirrors and focused lenses to direct and route light from a single monitor display to either left or right eye and have successfully achieved holographic-looking full-color HD high frame rate video. The system requires that it's placed between the monitor display and the viewer.I was thinking of a better way that would be less messy by placing equipment in the speaker sets of a surround sound system. To achieve what I have in mind, I was wondering if it might be possible to exploit photon quantum mechanics and somehow influence the light to shift either to the left or right (without frontal mirrors and/or lenses). I did an experiment and got some strange results and wonder if I can exploit it. I sat in front of a TV and watched a program with a cat, placing the cat up to the TV and to my side. My vision from the side of the cat dimmed each time I hold the cat up. Might it be possible that the cat's observation of the TV caused TV light photons to gravitate to the cat? Posted by PJay_A</DIV>I am not quite sure what phenomena you observed, but I am very certain that it had nothing to do with quantum mechanics and the cat.The only method that comes to mind for shifting the path of light without use of mirrors or lenses involves phased array transmission, as is done with radar to sweep the beam without moving parts.  But I don't see how you can do that without having light light of known frequency and phase -- laser light -- for your source.  That would not be the case with video.Your system sounds interesting, but I don't quite see how you can call it holographic.  The holographic systems that I have seen use goggles for the viewer, but permit one to actually walk around the 3D hologram and see it from different aspects, just like a real 3d object.  I don't think your system would permit that sort of image reconstruction, but it would be much easier for presentation of images to a large audience, basically an IMAX movie without need for the glasses.  That might have some significant commercial appeal.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Nov 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm working on development of a 3D video technology that does not require glasses. I've so far been successful at achieving this by using mirrors and focused lenses to direct and route light from a single monitor display to either left or right eye and have successfully achieved holographic-looking full-color HD high frame rate video. The system requires that it's placed between the monitor display and the viewer.I was thinking of a better way that would be less messy by placing equipment in the speaker sets of a surround sound system. To achieve what I have in mind, I was wondering if it might be possible to exploit photon quantum mechanics and somehow influence the light to shift either to the left or right (without frontal mirrors and/or lenses). I did an experiment and got some strange results and wonder if I can exploit it. I sat in front of a TV and watched a program with a cat, placing the cat up to the TV and to my side. My vision from the side of the cat dimmed each time I hold the cat up. Might it be possible that the cat's observation of the TV caused TV light photons to gravitate to the cat? Posted by PJay_A</DIV>I think you should explain what it is you're actually doing.  There are several commonly used ways to create a "3D" effect.  All of them don't manipulate light in to present some sort of true 3D image, they manipulate the brain's perception of what it is seeing.  Shutter-glasses manipulate light using a very high refresh rate synchs in order to give false perspective.  Red/Green glasses also give an impression of false perspective by having two different image sets of different colors arranged to produce that effect.  Polarized glasses use polarized light to yield the same type of result.  It's all a means of producing "stereoscopy."  Stereoscopes were very popular in the late 1800's through the 20'th.  It sounds as if you have reproduced stereoscopy and not entered into some quantum conundrum with light.  It is all about perception.  You didn't manipulate light in any special way to magically produce a 3D image.  However, your brain doesn't care about that and however it was achieved is generally immaterial.  What it wants to do is make sense of what it is seeing.  Because the brain works on the notion that "depth" in a field of view is determined by the differences in perspective between the left eye and the right eye, the brain is naturally going to conclude that anything which closely matches this perspective change and is being exclusively received by one eye when compared to the same "apparent" observations of the other.. must have true depth.  If one eye receives an image of the same scene that the other is receiving but the perspective is slightly off, the illusion is created.  That's it.  That's all the magic there is.  "Quantum" effects are unnecessary aside from a few which certain systems are dependent upon to produce the false perspective effect.Most attempts at generating a true 3D image require a special medium.  There has to be a canvas on which to paint, so to speak.  Mist generators, waterfalls, polarized plastic cards, clouds, mirrors, etc.. all have served as mediums for projecting 3D images or presenting 3D illusions.  If you really, really want to produce a fantastic 3D image without the use of any medium then consider yourself one of many that would truly love to see this achieved.  So far, it's been rough going. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

PJay_A · Nov 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I am not quite sure what phenomena you observed, but I am very certain that it had nothing to do with quantum mechanics and the cat.The only method that comes to mind for shifting the path of light without use of mirrors or lenses involves phased array transmission, as is done with radar to sweep the beam without moving parts.  But I don't see how you can do that without having light light of known frequency and phase -- laser light -- for your source.  That would not be the case with video.Your system sounds interesting, but I don't quite see how you can call it holographic.  The holographic systems that I have seen use goggles for the viewer, but permit one to actually walk around the 3D hologram and see it from different aspects, just like a real 3d object.  I don't think your system would permit that sort of image reconstruction, but it would be much easier for presentation of images to a large audience, basically an IMAX movie without need for the glasses.  That might have some significant commercial appeal.  Posted by DrRocket</DIV> No, you may move around with my system to see different views. In fact, the closer you are to the imager, the more details you see but what you see if a more narrow POV. Though I am tempted to call it holographic, it does truly have holographic qualities to it and certainly looks holograhic. What I have works perfectly for my eyes, but a software improvement I am working on will use face recognition to find the eyes of anyone looking into it and will automatically adjust the mirror angles to route the light to the appropiate eye for anyone looking into it, accordingly.

PJay_A · Nov 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I think you should explain what it is you're actually doing.  There are several commonly used ways to create a "3D" effect.  All of them don't manipulate light in to present some sort of true 3D image, they manipulate the brain's perception of what it is seeing.  Shutter-glasses manipulate light using a very high refresh rate synchs in order to give false perspective.  Red/Green glasses also give an impression of false perspective by having two different image sets of different colors arranged to produce that effect.  Polarized glasses use polarized light to yield the same type of result.  It's all a means of producing "stereoscopy."  Stereoscopes were very popular in the late 1800's through the 20'th.  It sounds as if you have reproduced stereoscopy and not entered into some quantum conundrum with light.  It is all about perception.  You didn't manipulate light in any special way to magically produce a 3D image.  However, your brain doesn't care about that and however it was achieved is generally immaterial.  What it wants to do is make sense of what it is seeing.  Because the brain works on the notion that "depth" in a field of view is determined by the differences in perspective between the left eye and the right eye, the brain is naturally going to conclude that anything which closely matches this perspective change and is being exclusively received by one eye when compared to the same "apparent" observations of the other.. must have true depth.  If one eye receives an image of the same scene that the other is receiving but the perspective is slightly off, the illusion is created.  That's it.  That's all the magic there is.  "Quantum" effects are unnecessary aside from a few which certain systems are dependent upon to produce the false perspective effect.Most attempts at generating a true 3D image require a special medium.  There has to be a canvas on which to paint, so to speak.  Mist generators, waterfalls, polarized plastic cards, clouds, mirrors, etc.. all have served as mediums for projecting 3D images or presenting 3D illusions.  If you really, really want to produce a fantastic 3D image without the use of any medium then consider yourself one of many that would truly love to see this achieved.  So far, it's been rough going. Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV>The working principle of what I am doing is the result of learning that by using a system of mirrored lenses, it is possible to actually control the direction of light to either the left or right eye. In earlier tests of my system, I used left-right split screens to generate the pre-processed stereo images. Then, I had the refresh rate alternate the images in full screen and experimented with various methods to separate the two images, including spinning disks and low frequency sound vibrations to move the angle of a "router" mirror to one of two possible positions.

Mee_n_Mac · Nov 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The working principle of what I am doing is the result of learning that by using a system of mirrored lenses, it is possible to actually control the direction of light to either the left or right eye. In earlier tests of my system, I used left-right split screens to generate the pre-processed stereo images. Then, I had the refresh rate alternate the images in full screen and experimented with various methods to separate the two images, including spinning disks and low frequency sound vibrations to move the angle of a "router" mirror to one of two possible positions. Posted by PJay_A</DIV> Any chance you could make a simple skectch in Paint or some such program and attach the file here ?  I can't envision what you're saying.  Here's a paper that outlines various techniques.  Are you doing some conceptually similar to the technique shown in Chap4, albeit implementing it in a completely different way ?FWIW : This link is a presentation made by JVC ( I think) at one novel (to me) method of making a stereoscopic image using 2 images projected simultaneously and "filter" glasses. The last few slides/pages (pg 16) show the "trick", a better variation on the old red eye / green eye (anaglyph) concept.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

emperor_of_localgroup · Nov 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm working on development of a 3D video technology that does not require glasses. I've so far been successful at achieving this by using mirrors and focused lenses to direct and route light from a single monitor display to either left or right eye and have successfully achieved holographic-looking full-color HD high frame rate video. The system requires that it's placed between the monitor display and the viewer.I was thinking of a better way that would be less messy by placing equipment in the speaker sets of a surround sound system. To achieve what I have in mind, I was wondering if it might be possible to exploit photon quantum mechanics and somehow influence the light to shift either to the left or right (without frontal mirrors and/or lenses). I did an experiment and got some strange results and wonder if I can exploit it. I sat in front of a TV and watched a program with a cat, placing the cat up to the TV and to my side. My vision from the side of the cat dimmed each time I hold the cat up. Might it be possible that the cat's observation of the TV caused TV light photons to gravitate to the cat? Posted by PJay_A</DIV>I'll take a shot at this. Although your cat-photon phenomena sounds interesting I think it's environmental not a general case. 3D with vision with completely optical system would be very difficult to build if not impossible. Here is my idea.3D vision is caused by the small phase difference of light coming from the front end and far end of objects to our eyes. Our stereo vision system is capable of discerning this small phase difference. Optical recreation of this process may be possible for still images not for videos. That is why you must use digital techniques and digital processing.  CRT display will not be the right tool to display 3D images, LCD display will be the best at present. But you must be able  to control each LCD pixel individually. Some image processing technique will detect and calculate the depth of edges and then with a precision timing circuit LCD pixels must be turned on/off with accurate time delay to simulate phase differences.Well, many things work in theory but not in practice. This idea may be one of them. But I won't sue anyone for stealing ideas.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Earth is Boring </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Nov 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'll take a shot at this. Although your cat-photon phenomena sounds interesting I think it's environmental not a general case. 3D with vision with completely optical system would be very difficult to build if not impossible. Here is my idea.3D vision is caused by the small phase difference of light coming from the front end and far end of objects to our eyes. Our stereo vision system is capable of discerning this small phase difference. Optical recreation of this process may be possible for still images not for videos. That is why you must use digital techniques and digital processing.  CRT display will not be the right tool to display 3D images, LCD display will be the best at present. But you must be able  to control each LCD pixel individually. Some image processing technique will detect and calculate the depth of edges and then with a precision timing circuit LCD pixels must be turned on/off with accurate time delay to simulate phase differences.Well, many things work in theory but not in practice. This idea may be one of them. But I won't sue anyone for stealing ideas.  Posted by emperor_of_localgroup</DIV> While there is a phase shift between the light entering one vs the other, I've never heard, nor do I think, that it's significant to our ability to see in "3D".  What has been demonstrated is that we can detect the parallax for near objects between the 2 eyes.  You can demonstrate this for yourself by holding out an extended finger, closing one eye and aligned said finger with something further away.  Now open your other eye and close the 1'st one.  Your finger will have shifted position relative to that background object.  This is the effect all the stereoscoptic vision thingees aim to exploit.  Of course our visual system then relies on other "rules" to infer depth as well. Things that are "big" are usually close, small things are usually far away ... unless they're really big and far away.  Things that overlay other things are in front of said other things.  These and other "rules" aren't always objectively true which is why you can fool the eye/brain with some interesting optical illusions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

emperor_of_localgroup · Nov 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>While there is a phase shift between the light entering one vs the other, I've never heard, nor do I think, that it's significant to our ability to see in "3D".  What has been demonstrated is that we can detect the parallax for near objects between the 2 eyes.  You can demonstrate this for yourself by holding out an extended finger, closing one eye and aligned said finger with something further away.  Now open your other eye and close the 1'st one.  Your finger will have shifted position relative to that background object.  This is the effect all the stereoscoptic vision thingees aim to exploit.  Of course our visual system then relies on other "rules" to infer depth as well. Things that are "big" are usually close, small things are usually far away ... unless they're really big and far away.  Things that overlay other things are in front of said other things.  These and other "rules" aren't always objectively true which is why you can fool the eye/brain with some interesting optical illusions. Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV> True, not many books talk about the phase difference and 3D vision but I have come to my conclusion from the theory of holograms. We are able to see 3D image in a hologram because Phase infomation is also recorded in hologram - this is not my idea but all books on holography tells us so. Things that are "big" are usually close, small things are usually far away. You should make a new thread on this. I always wondered why is this true? What if an object's size remains the same when viewing from 5ft or from 500 ft? Why does the lens  play this tricks on us? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Earth is Boring </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Nov 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>True, not many books talk about the phase difference and 3D vision but I have come to my conclusion from the theory of holograms. We are able to see 3D image in a hologram because Phase infomation is also recorded in hologram - this is not my idea but all books on holography tells us so. You should make a new thread on this. I always wondered why is this true? What if an object's size remains the same when viewing from 5ft or from 500 ft? Why does the lens  play this tricks on us? Posted by emperor_of_localgroup</DIV> Understanding the answer to your 2'nd question above holds the clue to understanding the 1'st. So the best way to understand a lens is via a picture. The animated .gif here is a pretty good and simple one to start with.  What you can see is that light rays coming "straight into" the lens focus at a point dircetly behind the lens.  Those rays coming in at some angle focus at a point displaced from the center.  The larger the angle, the more displaced.  Now shift gears and imagine a 6' tall person standing 6' away from you while you're seated at bellybutton height.  The light from the bellybutton is coming straight at your eyes and focuses to a point in the middle of your retina.  The light from the head is coming in at a steep angle and focuses elsewhere on your retina.  The light from the feet does likewise but in the opposite direction.  Now move the person 600' away.  The light rays from the bellybutton still come straight in but now the light from either the head or the feet comes into the lens at a much reduced angle(s).  The places where the light focuses these are now displaced just a bit from the center vs their earlier displacements.  The image made by putting all the light rays from all the body parts appears smaller because it is smaller ... on your retina.  What the lens does is convert angle to displacement.  Small angles, small displacement, small image.  Large angles, large displacement, large image.  No doubt the WWW has a good graphical depiction of this but I couldn't find one.A hologram stores the relative phasing of all the light rays that would eminated from it, in it's structure (in a magic way I won't discuss).  In this case what happens is the same conceptually as a phased array radar.  Light coming from differing parts of the hologram's surface are phased relative to each other so as to direct the light ray.  Different phasings mean the light is emitted at different angles.  If you can control the amount of light emitted at each phasing you can make bright or weak light rays at differing angles.  Light entering your eye from differing angles gets focused onto different, displaced parts of your retina thus forming an image.  I wish I had a good diagram, it would be worth 10,587 of my words.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

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