A drill made mostly of ice

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I think Enceladus is possible with a sapphire nanoparticle factory, and ion engines from nanoparticles paired with metamaterials from nanoparticles.
I won't have these mature technologies when Jupiter becomes possible. Ice armour awaits at an outer Moon. It will be nice to drill into the ice. It will save payload to have a drill made of ice, tipped with metals. Any particle made in a planetary ball mill is a candidate element for drill tipping. The beginnings of ice manufacturing processes are there; ice and sawdust floating airstrips were nearly a WW2 inventions. I have a system of hubs where ultra cold technologies will be in Alberta. But Callisto would predate my nanotech timelines. I still want it early for various aptitudes gained and the metals and ice. I hope someone will research a drill made of ice in the next two decades.
 

Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
Here is some information on the shear strength of ice:

QUOTE
On the other hand, Stallabrass and Price13 and more recently Itagaki14 found the adhesive shear strength of ice to be quite low, ranging from 4 to 10 psia (0.03-0.07 MPa) at 20°F (- 6.6°C) and 4 to 23 psia (0.03- 0.16 MPa) at a temperature of 30.2-59°F (- 1°-15°C).3 Nov 1991
Adhesive shear strength of impact ice - Aerospace Research ...
QUOTE

Put it this way. I would not risk my life (or a little finger) on it.
What do you want to drill into? Not more ice surely?
Please, I am interested in the response.

Cat :)

P.S. And, please, how do you propose to fix the tip to the ice shaft.
 

Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
I agree that it would be good to find some indigenous substance from which to make drill stocks, but I cannot see how to drill into a substance with a drill stock of the same substance you are drilling into.

It would be nice to use an isotope (viz., heavy water) - but how do you separate the heavy water from common water, when you are on the planet/moon surface trying to make drill stocks. If you are going to import heavy water, then why not bring in steel? OK, heavier, but look at the difference in shear strength.

Imagine, instead of a diamond bit, somehow attached to a thick ice stock, the same diamond attached to a narrow steel shaft - instead of the thick cylindrical stock made of ice.

Cat :)
 
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In the context of this competition, mining ice on the Moon may be challenging due to intensely cold temperatures inside permanently shadowed regions. Price of transportation of cargo to the Moon is currently at 1kg/$1mln, which rules out steel. Water is already available insitu on the Moon. Diamonds are expensive even for NASA but diamond dust is acceptably priced. Why not make heavy water on the spot, mixed in with fairy diamond dust, and you could drill trough steel like ice mountain.
 
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"Surface-charge-induced orientation of interfacial water suppresses
heterogeneous ice nucleation on -alumina": Figures 1b and 2c show pics of ice on sapphire.
"INVESTIGATING THE EFFECT OF SURFACE PROPERTIES ON ICE SCALING IN
EUTECTIC FREEZE CRYSTALLIZATION": pages 42-58 discuss ice free energy.
Ice is just another construction material but it will heat up as a drill. Lasers are easy to take, but there are reflection issues. I imaging whatever space wire Ontario Hydro makes me will be also enable lasers to work near Jupiter eventually, but my 1st lasers might not be strong enough. Lasers reflect. They have trouble with organic matter. I imagine lasers for 30 meters, then the drill for 10 meters. One yard wide. Maybe only goes a yards or two before breaking. The ice will likely be a colloid to better avoid crumbling. Some sort of membrane can give it tensile strength in interfacing with the bits. The elemental bits likely can arrive from Earth. A flywheel powertrain wont be possible in time...a nanodrill for AB by the end of the decade followed by screwdriver drill.
Addenum: Mechanical ice auger is the correct machine term. 80%+ in situ ice by composition. Maybe 400C a melting temperature substance it can auger through. Time is an issue. An ice block pyramid will protect from most radiation and some meteorite impacts. I don't know you can bring enough bricks from an outer Jovian planet to Callisto for a mine surface barrier. You have to make bricks before you are dosed or get deep enough for Callisto to stop the radiation and meteorites. On this contingency, I think a simple Auger is worth having. Some laminated materials technology will work for ice at -150C. To also function while spinning fast requires modelling big and little details in the same model. There are ice puddles in/on a few asteroids. I imagine it will drill through gravelly materials at low gravity. Consider a drill isn't much of a weapon, but lasers are if space becomes crowded.
 
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Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
Has anyone checked the chemical plant and power requirement needed to separate heavy water from H2O? I have a B.Sc. in Chemical Engineering, remember.

QUOTE
"Production of pure heavy water by distillation or electrolysis requires a large cascade of stills or electrolysis chambers and consumes large amounts of power, so the chemical methods are generally preferred.

The most cost-effective process for producing heavy water is the dual temperature exchange sulfide process (known as the Girdler sulfide process) developed in parallel by Karl-Hermann Geib and Jerome S. Spevack in 1943.[55]
QUOTE Heavy water - Wikipedia

Who is going to volunteer to go moons and install cascades of stills or electrolysis chambers? Ahhh OK, lets use the Girdler process. BUT check what chemical process equipment you need, and the power requirement for this too. And who is going there to operate it?
"The method is an isotopic exchange process between H2S and H2O ("light" water), that produces heavy water over several steps. It is a highly energy intensive process.[3]" Click here Girdler sulfide process

And you rule out the cost of bits of steel? What do you think all these stills and electrolysis chambers are made of? Or the cost of chemical plant and electricity for the Girdler process required on the moon?

Don't forget all the additional costs for transporting qualified personnel to build and operate these plants.

Oh, we can't afford the cost of steel, it's too expensive"

Cat :)

P.S. BTW, would you rather trust yourself to a steel cable or one made of ice?
"On the other hand, Stallabrass and Price13 and more recently Itagaki14 found the adhesive shear strength of ice to be quite low, ranging from 4 to 10 psia* (0.03-0.07 MPa) at 20°F (- 6.6°C) and 4 to 23 psia (0.03- 0.16 MPa) at a temperature of 30.2-59°F (- 1°-15°C)." My emphasis.
"The shear strength can reach 41 N/mm² (6000 psi) on steel."

*Note:
Is PSIA same as PSI?
PSIA is a term that describes the absolute pressure in PSI, including the pressure of the atmosphere. Absolute pressure is also sometimes referred to as “total pressure.” while average atmospheric surface pressure (at sea level) is roughly 14.7 PSIA.
So add 14,7 to "4 to 10" or "4 to 23"when comparing with 6000.
 
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Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
It sounded unusual to me too until I google it. It looks like some application of frozen heavy water within diamond could work? Thanks
From your link:
"Thanks to the discovery of water trapped inside diamonds from deep underground, geologists are thinking our planet could have much more water inside than we ever knew. . . . . . . . . .

The water molecules found in these diamonds were squeezed into a solid form of ice, but they represent briny pools of liquid water that would be trapped in rocks far, far down - below a section of the mantle called the transition zone." My emphasis.

Aren't they talking of using water trapped inside diamonds?

Cat :)
 
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Thanks Cat. This topic is proving more educational the more it is unearthed (no pun intended). My recommendation (as usual) was based mainly on old proverb then anything anything else, which says the Woden axe’s handle is itself came from the woods. Hence the ice drill could be made from the ice. So far conventional drills haven’t been all that good either.

The other point about water inside diamond is intriguing I think. It seems water is the only substance which can exist in both solid and liquid states simultaneously, which can boost its strengths for this application making it stronger then steel, perhaps. By analogy there is something called bendable concrete, which supersedes regular concrete in strength even if it’s lighter.
 
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A question is, a bandsaw is treated steel, with carbide razors. How weak could the steel instead be and still have a functioning saw? Laminate layers are used to make substances sometimes get the best of both worlds. Ceramics are good for knife attacks and CNT weaves, presumably for bullets. CNT garbage is an okay hull material if something ceramicky bulges out here and there to break of meteorites. But alone, either ceramic or CNT is a bad ship hull. I'm thinking even a cardboard band saw wheel will work, it being the analogy for an ice auger.
For some reference, I'm expecting a ship to be at high A/C voltage. That way it doesn't short out as easily and die. I'm expecting the 3 or 4 key ship systems that need it, to be linked by wires directly going right through the interior cabin and basically with a tinman level of build precedence. Ideally, other infrastructure mirror the ship's power. The auger and lasers too. Ice as part of a laminate may easily or not, cut ice. Like a pillow case keeps in feathers. The first ship will want to fall apart when fast, so MArs and Jupiter orbits for NASA at first.
 

Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
A drill made mostly of ice

As far a I am aware, post #7 kills this idea dead.

Even if you are going to use (if it is possible) water inside diamond, these presumably have to be fashioned into shafts like the pure (or impure) water shafts? Does this not require some form of factory? Humans in most inhospitable environments to make the shafts / operate the plants? All this to extract water, which might be more cheaply derived by desalination of Earth's oceans? And once you have extracted water from a moon, where are you going to take it?

As a professional Chemical Engineer, the whole idea seems totally unrealistic to me.

What am I missing?

Cat :)
 

Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
I just noticed, this diamond/ice mixture is on Earth. Do we have any proof whatsoever that it exists anywhere near Callisto or any other planetry moon - or anywhere else come to that?

If it has to be shipped from Earth, then I suggest shipping steel shafts would make much more sense.

There is also the question of fixing non-steel shafts to drilling heads. Don't forget that this fixing has to withstand the forces brought about by drilling into ice. The head, via this fixing, has to withstand the rotational force and stay fixed securely. Breakage of this bond would be very expensive.

One final point. Why would they want to drill ice on Callisto anyway?

Cat :)
 
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I may be intersect my comments with Phillip’s, sorry not sure what he thinks. For me I can add the material science is not set in “stone”. For example there are 3d printers which could be used to 3d print stuff from ice. There is also material called PEEK which is 3d printable plastic but as strong as steel or close, which could be figured in.

Callisto which is the size of Mercury and 20+ worlds next to Jupiter would be like killing multiple birds at once for StarShip planet hopper. Get a young couple of geologists (husband and wife) who would have kids early, send them alone on this mission. Keep in touch over whatsapp and metaverse. A journey of 5 year to and from, plus 10 years there, come back, retire early, having missed rising their kids will instead raise their kids’ kids (maybe named Amundsen).

This Jupiter’s love couple will spend their journey there studying advanced degrees and practicing their future missions via virtual simulations. On the way back they will be writing books about the worlds they discovered may be like Darwin did. Space is dark/cold so they need huge kupala style windows with gardens, libraries, fireplace (yes Cat), and many other things to remind them of home. Hibernation is not desirable as it wastes away peoples life, but should be available just in case. And a pair of small turtles as pets.
 
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For people missions yes water, but also food from plants which need water, oxygen, shelter, 3d printing stock, etc. We are not going south here towards Venus, it’s frozen worlds down there.
 
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A drill made mostly of ice
As far a I am aware, post #7 kills this idea dead.
Even if you are going to use (if it is possible) water inside diamond, these presumably have to be fashioned into shafts like the pure (or impure) water shafts? Does this not require some form of factory? Humans in most inhospitable environments to make the shafts / operate the plants? ... And once you have extracted water from a moon, where are you going to take it?
I've read two good water ices. Sea ice. And single grained ice made by barrelling salt water so the bottom surface is super cooled and lake water grows below the barrel almost like an ingot of sapphire or I assume silicon. The pressure makes sea ice strong. It will be testable (polarization) what ice moons have in case a sculpture wants to make an in situ device. I would melt with lasers and NASA will likely have radioisotope heating. 1972 Canada research got about 10x better of one ice modulus with wood and steel filler and pipes, up to 10% filler. I'm worried about compression modulus but many are important.
"Fracture of Ti-Al3Ti Metal–Intermetallic Laminate
Composites: Effects of Lamination on Resistance-Curve
Behavior": this metal layering also increases fracture strength by an order of magnitude. Generally I expect to go 10mm ice, 10 microns foil in making this but whatever process conditions permit. So, ice inside foil. Yes this requires factory apparatus but I'm hoping lots of it is desktop stuff. Inside a sapphire UHV chamber ideally. 2080, I expect space to be more hospitable than Earth. Never Jupiter. I took a shift ending past bus surface in a food freezer, and walked a winter highway for 2hrs/day for a month with -30C windy nights. To retire for a few hours and barely appease an OCD landlord. Ice Moon space will be mentally healthy and in general better than that environment. Ice is needed for initial ship shielding between Pasiphae to Callisto. Chemical engineering is good, but for adhesions, C.Phoenix was right 15 years ago, you can just machine sprues or whatever high surface area interface you need. It is mechanical engineering at micron scales. I'd think 20kg shipped from Earth using nano. 200kg if a custom motor is needed (I'm hoping modular). And 2 tonnes from Earth to ship a boring implement. Even if lasers work better, this kind of savings should work for many materials. Insulating the -150C ice from melting is why I can't today get better modelling ##.

"For people missions yes water, but also food from plants which need water, oxygen, shelter, 3d printing stock, etc. We are not going south here towards Venus, it’s frozen worlds down there."
I'd guess solar battery transport goes from Venus to the gas giants. I'd venture you can 3d print a bottle rocket tow ship easy enough, but to use ion engines 3d printing followed by an advanced process is needed to avoid the ship falling apart at speed. One high voltage keep ions straight, so the metal may need custom directional improvements the same way jet engine turbine blades are made better this century.
 

Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
I stand by my assertion that post #7 blows this idea out of the water for all practical purposes. When you consider all the additional chemical plant and resources required to make drills out of ice, it is far better to ship put steel drills ready made. This weight of steel represents a minute percentage of the weight of chemical plant and resources needed to be shipped to make comparatively weak and insubstantial drills from ice.

Cat :)
 
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I can model this a yr or two before I can build a hand-tool. Metallic liners are used in pressure vessels for LNG, etc. Right now the liner and the glass-fibre or carbon fibre wrap aren't well modelled interacting. Often they each bear 1/2 the tensile stress. An UHV chamber is similar; the pressure is inwards. Knowing the layer bond math should help with ice and substrate layers. I'm happy for this conversation, it is easier math to model than optical applications, maybe 2025.
 
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Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
A drill made mostly of ice

This is the title of the thread.

Is anyone still suggesting that this is feasible, compared with a steel drill, bearing in mind all all the chemical (or whatever) plant, and personnel required to ship to a moon to make relatively flimsy ice drills?

Cat :)
 
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Suggest yes, prototype not really sure. Waterfalls drill through rocks in nature, stalactites inside caves break the ground, icicles can kill, roadsters can fly in space, and there is diamond rain on Neptune. Also Insight’s probe drill made of the finest steel couldn’t get through more than 10cm if icy Martian land. No I am not going to wage my beanie hat on it like Phileas Fogg did. But who really knows, for someone like Musk he could have machines, peoples, heavy water refineries and nuclear power plants down there someday. There is not much in the way of solar power in the belt.
 

Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
My honest opinion is that digressing about waterfalls and frozen Martian land is not being very helpful in addressing the thread title subject. Still, you may believe otherwise. :)

Would you rather stand on a steel platform, supported by steel struts, 10,000 feet up in the air, or on an ice platform supported by ice? And then add a 10 ton weight to your platform?

That is a digression, at least with some relevance.

Cat :)
 
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Thanks Cat. Yes, but for me digressing is one of the problem solving techniques, if direct path is not present. The other technique is based on agreeing with your fellow space poster, which I entirely am. Here may be the answer to your second question.
 

Catastrophe

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
Thanks suneritz. I am not at all convinced about this diamond / ice mix. Are you suggesting that this is the form present on ice giant moons? Otherwise how to you obtain it and transport it to Callisto or other such moons?

Cat :) :) :)
 
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This process may be analogous to ice diamond “migration” from gas giant to its moon. Let’s wait and see if the ice drill work one day. If doesn’t it doesn’t. But if it does you could have diamonds to spare.
 
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