A need for asteroid mining?

[zergnerd]

I saw an article on Reuters today:
"As hybrid cars gobble rare metals, shortage looms"
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE57U02B20090831

Question: Has any research been done on the availability of these metals (lithium, neodymium, etc) in asteroids? I've heard about nickel-iron asteroids, but not about rare earth metals being present. Anyway, if these minerals are present in sufficient quantity, pushing for a space mining infrastructure would allow us in 4 or 5 decades to offload much of the mining from Earth. Once the infrastructure is in place, returning the metals to Earth would be relatively cheap and would mean we wouldn't have to rip up virgin wilderness to build "green" technologies. Considering how much global warming and environmental degradation are expected to cost our economies, developing this infrastructure might be well worth it.

 

[Shpaget]

Do we need to develop asteroid mining techniques? Yes, yes, YES, yes...
You can find any element in asteroids as you would on Earth (you can, right?). After all entire solar system, including asteroids formed from the same nebula/dust cloud, whatever you call that thing from which a star and planets form.

What bothers me is how to get significant amounts of ore (or even processed material) down to Earth.
You can't just throw couple of thousand tons and hope you don't hit anything on the ground. And even if you do miss everything (deserts) you still end up with a mushroom. It might not make you glow in the dark, but it's still one BIG explosion.
Throwing down smaller pieces wouldn't be economical (trajectory calculation and adjustment for each and every stone? I don't think so...)

Asteroid mining is perfect for construction of objects that will stay up there.

 

[access]

Sadly although they are called rare earth elements their not rare the shortage is caused by lack of mining not lack of material such as if you read this article on autoblog green http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/31/re ... -shortage/ You'll notice the metal necessary is neodymium which according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium# ... production) is 38mg/kg in the earth's crust. It's too bad because that's the exact thought i had when i read that article.

 

[SpaceXFanMobius57]

Earth has an unbeleavable amout of these materials, the problem is they are deeper than we can reach, like in the mantle and core. Especially materials like platinum which most has sunk to the core area. In asteroids these materials can be found laying around the surface and inside. Relativly easy to get to.

The problem of getting materials down to eart may be solved by large cargo pods with heat shields. Or really effective spaceplanes. Or space elevators(further out in technology)

The real beauty is these mining outposts on Asteroids can be fully automated, with the roid staying in its orbit. The mined material can then be loaded onto the (manufactured at location) cargo pods which then are launced for a date with a world desert.

 

[access]

Earth has an unbeleavable amout of these materials, the problem is they are deeper than we can reach, like in the mantle and core. Especially materials like platinum which most has sunk to the core area. In asteroids these materials can be found laying around the surface and inside. Relativly easy to get to.

The problem of getting materials down to eart may be solved by large cargo pods with heat shields. Or really effective spaceplanes. Or space elevators(further out in technology)

The real beauty is these mining outposts on Asteroids can be fully automated, with the roid staying in its orbit. The mined material can then be loaded onto the (manufactured at location) cargo pods which then are launced for a date with a world desert.

Now they could still easily be out of reach but 38mg/kg is in the crust not mantle or core. Although that's only Neodymium Platinum is a different story.

 

[neutrino78x]

Surely once we have spaceplanes or otherwise have cheap access to space, this will quickly become a major industry. Like others have said, just bring back a large container full of a mineral that is rare or hard to attain on Earth, and it would be quite valuable!!!

 

[Bill_Wright]

It has virtually been proven that asteroids contain Iridium, one of the series of metals useful as catalysts.
-- Bill

 

[Bill_Wright]

There was a recent test of a blow-up Kevlar heat shield that survived re-entry. Possibly this is the solution to getting objects less delicate than people from space to Earth. Thoughts?

 

[TimeDog]

instead of landing these cargo pods in the desert why not just drop them in the ocean? a boat could come and pick it up then. wont have to worry about blowing anyone up.

 

[annodomini2]

The only thing that would cause a major push for asteroid mining in the near term would be some material which you cannot acquire here on earth and is needed for some purpose.

Such as potentially He3 for certain forms of Fusion

And then that they cannot be acquired on the moon.

Other than that it wouldn't be commercially viable

Long term though, for deep space and extra solar missions this may be a viable alternative to building here on Earth

Say a ship factory in close proximity to the Kuiper Belt with mining stations extracting the required minerals to be processed and create the ship.

The added benefit being you're already that much further out in the solar system and no orbital launch to deal with.

Other than that I personally don't see a benefit

 

[Shpaget]

Dropping big stones in the oceans would cause more damage than hitting solid ground. (big tsunami-like waves).
Besides, who would fish them out once they embed themselves 100 m under the seabed that is already few hundred meters deep? We are talking about thousands of tons, and no existing excavation equipment capable of working in deep sea.

 

[vattas]

For the near future it will be easier to recycle already used metals than to mine asteroids...

 

[scottb50]

For the near future it will be easier to recycle already used metals than to mine asteroids...

Based on observations made directly at asteroids appear to show they were formed by the accumulation of material just like planets and moons, this would lead to a fairly dense core surrounded by substantial deposits of relatively light material accrued since the formation of the Solar system. A metallic object, like the one found on Mars recently or those found on Earth, could be all that is left of a substantial sized asteroid.

Any heavy metals or other valuable materials would not be on the surface waiting to be picked up but would be near the core of the object, requiring substantial mining costs. One possibility could be extracting Helium3 trapped in the surface deposits, but that would depend on technology to even use Helium3 being developed.

 

[MeteorWayne]

That would of course depend on how large the original planetesimal was. Smaller objects never melt enough to differntiate into a core and crust.

As you point out, just as with the earth the siderophile elements will wind up in the core of a larger object, not near the surface.

 

[SpaceXFanMobius57]

Drop them on the desert because on the ocean they would sink. We shouldent have to make it boyant.

Plus were talking about dropping refined materials in large heat shielded pods, not tossing large chunks of rock at the Earth.

 

[EarthlingX]

Why drop them, maybe they could be processed in space ? I think that weightlessness allows for much better crystal growth if nothing else. BA 330 is not so expensive and with SLASR or nuclear option there's power to throw away. If gravity is needed for some of the processes, a bit of rotation or moving production to Moon surface might do the trick.
Many of this operations could be done with telerobotics, requiring a minimum of human presence.
With fuel made in space, there are many more options how to get stuff to the planet surface including the advancement in heat shield tech that Bill mentioned.
There is still a need for more information about asteroid/planetesimals composition. I think that mass production of a mothership/SSTO-lander-sampler could do the magic.

 

[neutrino78x]

hey guys I found this BBC article that is relevant to this thread Says the NEAR spacecraft found 2 trillion dollars of gold in the asteroid Eros:

Gold in Eros

There are untold riches in the asteroid belt, the only thing is that you have to achieve cheap, commercial access to space.

 

[zergnerd]

Says the NEAR spacecraft found 2 trillion dollars of gold in the asteroid Eros

Actually it says 20 trillion. From the article:

The most detailed study of an asteroid shows that it contains precious metals worth at least $20,000bn.

Problem is if you go out and start mining it, there's no regulatory scheme for giving you claim to that mine. Various con artists have already claimed to own all the planets and asteroids under some nebulous interpretation of a treaty that no government can claim ownership of a space body (but said nothing about non-governmental groups or individuals). They then "sell" plots on these bodies to their victims. In order to maintain your rights to mine the asteroid, you'd have to deal with all sorts of lawsuits from them and their victims. My guess those riches will largely go untouched until some creates some sort of squatters-rights or other treaty to permit ownership of a mine by someone actively using it.

 

[EarthlingX]

Those trillions of $ started itching my calculator to check if it's time to get my pickaxe and Betty (mule).

Here is my try to get dV from LEO (forgive me my math teacher, wherever you are ):
V(Earth) = Earth orbital speed = 29,8 km/s, V(Eros) = Eros orbital speed = 24,36 km/s, a = Eros inclination angle = 10,829 degrees, V(EarthEsc) = Earth escape speed = 11 km/s, V(EarthLEO) = speed in LEO = 9,5 km/s;
dV(LEO->Eros) = ( (V(Eros) * sin a)^2 + (V(Earth) - V(Eros)*cos a )^2 )^0,5 + V(EarthEsc) - V(EarthLEO)
= 9 km/s (approximately)
I expect anyone who gets there to plan coming back too, so mission dV would be probably 2*dV(LEO->Eros) * 1,2 to allow a bit of margin.
dV(Eros mission) = 21,6 km/s

This should probably be done with Isp above 5000s to allow decent fuel/structure ratio. SHE could do it (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19638)

Eros is not really alone out there, there are many more in the store, with less difference in orbital speed and inclination.
Take your pick: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-Earth_asteroid, http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/groups.html, ...

I will have to smuggle this planetside, but since space rangers are sparse, no shooting until i land with a lots of money. :mrgreen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/ ... table.html

 

[neutrino78x]

Problem is if you go out and start mining it, there's no regulatory scheme for giving you claim to that mine. My guess those riches will largely go untouched until some creates some sort of squatters-rights or other treaty to permit ownership of a mine by someone actively using it.

EXACTLY. That's why I created that Outer Space Treaty thread. I think the great free nations -- USA, UK, Japan, Germany, Italy, France, Canada -- need to meet and form a new Outer Space Treaty that allows nations to claim land. Certainly, the space between the asteroids and planets should be regarded legally in the same way as is international waters, but the planets and asteroids themselves should be able to be claimed.

NASA should be able to land astronauts on Eros, plant a US flag, and say "I, Commander Frank Maddux, US Navy, hereby claim this land in the name of the United States of America", then SpaceDev, Inc., should be able to follow after them and set up a mining operation. If the government takes some percentage of the proceeds from selling the gold in tax, we should be able to balance the budget and eliminate our national debt!!!

 

[Shpaget]

You can't just claim something and consider it yours. Those law suits would be very short lived since any sane judge would dismiss them on the spot. Meanwhile you continue mining, and hauling it back to Earth.
Besides, I'd like to see that guy (or anybody else) delivering me a subpoena. :lol:

 

[Booban]

The US and most countries follow the historical pattern of laws being established after the fact, such as many recent laws regarding the internet. Go and squat there and then the outer space law of squatting will be established afterwards. Until then, the age old right of possession being 2/3 of the law and might makes right reigns, ie. you can claim it until someone pushes you off it. But space is a big place, whose going to quibble about one rock.

 

[andrew_t1000]

I think we should get our heavy industries off planet.
One use for Helium 3 or "hot hydrogen" is you can extract metals from their oxides.
You can react iron oxide with "normal" hydrogen and extract the iron, that doesn't work for other metal oxides like aluminium. But it does with "hot hydrogen" and it is very efficient.

Another factor is that power is cheaper in space.
I'm not talking vast arrays of photo-voltaic cells, but large mirrors heating something like sodium, just like in a nuclear power plant, to make steam to run turbines. Just about any power station recycles all of its boiler water, because it is cheaper to condense it than it is to de-mineralise or desalinate continuously. And considering that the by-product of extracting metals from metal oxides is water, any loss in the closed system power plant could be topped up that way.
A rolling mill in microgravity could exploit magneto-hydrodynamic effects rather than just relying on pure mechanical means.

Another reason to go to the moon, those pure white ejecta blankets around some lunar craters look suspiciously like titanium oxide. Cheap titanium would make metallic thermal protection (heat shields) a lot more viable.
At the moment you get AUS$300/tonne for scrap steel, the price of steel for fabrication has gone through the roof!
It has gotten so bad that people are stealing manhole covers, street drain grates, park benches!
At $300/tonne it makes commercial sense to mine asteroids.
The other thing is we are talking NICKEL iron, not just iron. Essentially stainless steel.
Now maybe car manufacturers might not like the idea of a car body/chassis that lasted forever, bit it makes environmental sense. A car that lasts as long as your house does, one that you would buy with a view to upgrading it's systems every now and then, not through the whole thing on a scrap heap.

Maybe bringing back unrefined ore doesn't make much sense, but finished products do, pipe, extruded sections, RSJ.
A microgravity steel mill would make for better materials, which would lead to safer transportation, better buildings, a better life for all.
Bringing stuff "down the well" is the challenge, but with cheap titanium, stainless steel and chrome steel a large orbit to ground glider might do the trick or a rigid, "edge of space" dirigible transfer vehicle.
The simplest, least elegant is a single use cargo pod, with a titanium heat shield, once its down the WHOLE thing is used.

A lunar MAGLEV launcher like the one in Robert Heinlen's "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" to send finished product back would keep costs down. Now for all those who think a moonbase will just be "an igloo for geeks", think of it that way!

Something else to consider, Titan has oceans of hydrocarbons!
While we piss away our oil reserves, fuelling trains, planes and automobiles, we are in danger of losing a resource that is vital to modern civilisation.
Look around you right now, there is not a single thing in our houses that is not derived from oil, either directly or indirectly.
From the plastics in the keyboard I'm typing on, the LCD monitor I'm watching, the insulation in the rat's nest of cables behind my desk, the fibres in my clothes, the ink in my books, all of it is derived from oil in one way or another.

Most people think of an oil crisis in terms of, "Oh Crap! I'll have to walk to the shop", but it is way more dire than that.
When things get bad enough, the cost of shipping hydrocarbons back from Titan will seem cheap.
Not to mention the fact that other sources for hydrocarbons are very destructive to the environment, dredging methane sludge from the ocean floor, burning oil shale's, mining old refuse tips for plastics and the like.
Do we really want to consign future generations to a third world existence where we are rummaging through long buried garbage, looking for plastic and metals?
Don't we see enough of that on the news already? Third world kids raking through garbage piles, looking for usable trash.

A lot of people will read this and think "This hippy is crazy, where will the money come from for all these whack ideas?"
Well to those people I say, wake up! The constant scrabble for the all mighty dollar is killing our planet and dooming future generations to a very bleak future.

So when we are asking "Is there a need for asteroid mining?"
The answer is yes.

 

[robotical]

And then that they cannot be acquired on the moon.

Asteroid mining would be much cheaper for one reason: gravity. This is the primary problem within any off-planet mining or industry. You still have to get supplies up there and then get your product off a body and down here. Small asteroids would vastly simplify the second part.

Incidentally, as already alluded to, the problem with 'rare' earth metals isn't that there isn't enough of them on Earth. The problem is that there wasn't enough of a demand for them prior to this decade, so few mines were built. The mines that were built outside of China were generally shut down after China flooded the market in the 90's with the REMs. Now there's an increasing demand and mines take time to set up. Currently there are very few metals that will be economical to mine off planet.

 

[EarthlingX]

Here is another possible mining destination 7,1 km/s from LEO.
It is a small (2,3 km) metallic asteroid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%286178%29_1986_DA