a proposal

[cyrus_daywalker]

okay, i was sitting here the other day thinking and i decided to crunch some numbers. according to calculations, the universe is 180 billion light years across. that is more or less equal to 1.06 septillion miles. so i then assumed that the universe was spherical and applied circumfrence to it. i got a total circ. of 8.9 quattuordecillion miles (that's 8.9 with 44 zeros afterwards for those who don't know). well then, this idea popped in my head. since we haven't seen the edge of the universe yet because it's so far away, what if it is a multiverse (i know that idea has been proposed before, but here's the kicker) located inside of another universe (essentially a biverse). and then it's a couple of biverses inside of a triverse and so on. since there is no end to numbers and number apply to most everything in the universe, can't things get infinitely larger or infinitely smaller? we haven't found anything smaller than the sub atomic particles, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something smaller than that. we can't see the edge of the universe, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something larger than that. thousands of stars inside a cluster, millions of clusters inside a galaxy, millions of galaxies inside the universe, MILLIONS OF UNIVERSES INSIDE A ....... you get the point.

 

[why06]

<font color="yellow">Actually I don't get the point....<br /><font color="white">Tell me, what kind of numbers are you crunching?<br /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">Oh...and here's the thing....since the universe is time and space.... "How can you put a fixed amount on all there will ever be???</font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[qso1]

I agree that whatever one calls it, it probably goes on indefinetely. My own take is that I consider space itself, that blackness we see when no objects are present or illuminated...to be the Universe. As such, it goes on forever. Filled with collections of galactic clusters and billions of light year voids between galactic cluster collections.<br /><br />Naturally this can't be proven but its just my take on it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><<cyrus_daywalker>> since there is no end to numbers and number apply to most everything in the universe, can't things get infinitely larger or infinitely smaller? we haven't found anything smaller than the sub atomic particles, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something smaller than that.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>numbers are one thing and physical reality another, besides infinity is not a number and if you treated it like as number, you likely wouldn't get past a proper math exam<br /><br />there possibly may very well be something smaller still BUT nothing can be infinitely small or large for the simple reason that the term 'infinite' is only applicable within mathematics, never in physics, that is in actual world since nothing in physical world can have such attribute, infinity is purely a tool of mathematics<br /><br />all that talk about singularities and infinite space etc belongs to sci-fi, not science<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[larper]

Circumference is 2*r*pi, not pi*r^2 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Vote </font><font color="#3366ff">Libertarian</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[kmarinas86]

He got the first part right:<br /><br />http://www.google.com/search?q=180+billion+light+years+in+miles<br /><br />180 billion light years = 1.05812997 * 10^24 miles<br /><br />But he got the second part wrong (he calculated surface area instead of circumference). Even so, the number he got is still wrong:<br /><br />http://www.google.com/search?q=pi*%28180+billion+light+years%29%5E2+in+square+miles<br /><br />pi * ((180 billion light years)^2) = 3.51744974 * 10^48 square miles

 

[eagledare]

That is a interresting point I have pondered on since I can remember. If you could be made so small that the nuclues of an atom is the size of say our sun, what would you see. Planets and stars perhaps. Onthe other hand if you could be made so big that the sun is the size of a nucleus what would you see then. Planets and stars perhaps. What limits the size of anything surley not us.

 

[SpeedFreek]

We just love to think about this stuff, dont we! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />One thing I'm wondering is - can we ever know how big the universe is?<br /><br />The reason I ask is because we are only at the centre of our observable universe. We have seen past the most distant objects in every direction, and found no more (just stuff like cosmic background radiation). The most distant objects are something like 13.5 billion light years away, and therefore 13.5 billion years old. So the observable universe is something over 13.5 billion ly in radius, or 27 billion ly diameter.<br /><br />But we see the furthest objects accelerating away from us at the fastest speeds, and things closer moving away slower. And those furthest objects we see accelerating away were doing this 13.5 billion years ago. It is estimates of where these things have reached by now that gives us the figure of 180 billion ly across.<br /><br />When we look over long distances, we are looking back in time, and the furthest we can look is the beginning of the universe (or just after).<br /><br />So if the universe were only 15 billion years old, we would only ever be able to see objects at a maximum of 15 billion ly away... see where this is going?<br /><br />If the universe was actually 1000 billion ly across, we would need 1000 billion years for the light from the most distant objects to reach us.<br /><br />So.. if the universe is infinite, we can never know this for sure?<br /><br />And then we start to consider what the people living on the most distant objects see? The theory is they also see things for 13.5 billion ly in each direction, but when they look at where we are, they see what was here 13.5 billion years ago. And so on... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>

 

[qso1]

speedfreek:<br />We just love to think about this stuff, dont we!<br /><br />Me:<br />That we do.<br /><br />speedfreek:<br />One thing I'm wondering is - can we ever know how big the universe is?<br /><br />Me:<br />Probably not. Especially when one considers what you mentioned about the Universe being 180 B light years across. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[djtt]

this is a fancy way of considering the picture within a picture concept really?

 

[scepterium]

The fact is no matter what you say it won't explain how the universe can be infinite simply because it can't be done because it's impossible for anything to be infinite. I know it's hard to believe how the universe can be finite with nothing beyond it but it's %100 possible since nothing doesn't exist and the kicker is that universe means "everything that exists". Ok let me try to explain what nothing means for those who can't fully grasp it... If there is a God that can do anything and go anywhere it will go everywhere except beyond the universe since a beyond the universe (or everything) doesn't exist.

 

[qso1]

A new spin on "Getting the big picture". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Scepterium:<br />because it's impossible for anything to be infinite.<br /><br />Me:<br />How do you know this for sure? AFAIK, even science has not labelled infinity oughtright impossible. If a God exists and that God created everything including nothing...it stands to reason this God can pretty much go, and do whatever it pleases. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[scepterium]

qso1<br />How do you know this for sure?<br /><br />Me:<br />I know simply because it's not logical at all.<br /><br />qso1:<br />AFAIK, even science has not labelled infinity oughtright impossible. If a God exists and that God created everything including nothing...it stands to reason this God can pretty much go, and do whatever it pleases. <br /><br />Me:<br />Hmmm, please tell me you're just testing me. Only something can come out of creating. So God couldn't of created everything and nothing because if he didn't create anything then us and the universe as we know it wouldn't be here.

 

[SpeedFreek]

Impossible for something to be infinite eh?<br /><br />How many parts can you divide a circle (through the centre) into?<br /><br />How many items with a mass of zero (e.g. a photon) can you fit inside an item with a mass of 1?<br /><br />How many numbers are there after the decimal point in a recurring number?<br /><br />The universe may be finite and unbounded, or it may be infinite. Just because it doesn't seem logical to you, it doesn't mean it's impossible. Try not to use phrases such as "the fact is" and "impossible" when things are not facts and may be possible, you only do yourself and your arguement a disservice. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>