Altair Lunar Module LEO parking

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PJay_A

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<p>QUESTION:</p><p>&nbsp;First, I'm assuming the planned Altair Lunar Modules are being designed as reusable elements of NASA's Constellation program that will travel indefinately back and forth between LEO and the moon. Part I of my question: Is my above assumption correct? Question Part II: When the Altair parks itself in LEO, will it (and Orion) free-fly and/or will it/can it park docked to the ISS? </p>
 
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Zipi

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>QUESTION:&nbsp;First, I'm assuming the planned Altair Lunar Modules are being designed as reusable elements of NASA's Constellation program that will travel indefinately back and forth between LEO and the moon. Part I of my question: Is my above assumption correct? Question Part II: When the Altair parks itself in LEO, will it (and Orion) free-fly and/or will it/can it park docked to the ISS? <br />Posted by PJay_A</DIV><br /><br />I don't know for sure and at the moment I'm too lazy to check, but in my mind Altair is for single use only. At least all Nasa Altair animations are looking like it is for single use only. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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scottb50

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>QUESTION:&nbsp;First, I'm assuming the planned Altair Lunar Modules are being designed as reusable elements of NASA's Constellation program that will travel indefinately back and forth between LEO and the moon. Part I of my question: Is my above assumption correct? Question Part II: When the Altair parks itself in LEO, will it (and Orion) free-fly and/or will it/can it park docked to the ISS? <br /> Posted by PJay_A</DIV></p><p>If I'm not mistaken the idea is pretty much the same as with Apollo. There would not be a return to LEO, instead there would be a direct return. I would have to look further but I believe the moon lander would also function like the Apollo did, returning to the orbiting Earth return vehicle. I would think the lander could be kept parked in orbit for multiple uses, but I doubt that is in the plans either.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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qso1

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<p>Thats correct. Its pretty much like Apollo except for being boosted to LEO by more than one rocket. Just off the top of my head, IIRC the Altair, like the LM...is a two stage vehicle that would leave only an ascent stage in lunar orbit upon mission completion. It would not be able to return to the lunar surface and being in lunar orbit for months between missions pretty much precludes it from being very useful in any case.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
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scottb50

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thats correct. Its pretty much like Apollo except for being boosted to LEO by more than one rocket. Just off the top of my head, IIRC the Altair, like the LM...is a two stage vehicle that would leave only an ascent stage in lunar orbit upon mission completion. It would not be able to return to the lunar surface and being in lunar orbit for months between missions pretty much precludes it from being very useful in any case.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by qso1</DIV></p><p>Maybe you could simply bring a new descent stage and dock them? It seems a real waste to cart everything out for every mission.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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Cygnus_2112

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>QUESTION:&nbsp;First, I'm assuming the planned Altair Lunar Modules are being designed as reusable elements of NASA's Constellation program that will travel indefinately back and forth between LEO and the moon. Part I of my question: Is my above assumption correct? Question Part II: When the Altair parks itself in LEO, will it (and Orion) free-fly and/or will it/can it park docked to the ISS? <br /> Posted by PJay_A</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;Altair is not resusable</p><p>It doen't leave lunar orbit&nbsp;</p><p>ISS is not involved with lunar missions&nbsp;</p>
 
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Boris_Badenov

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>QUESTION:&nbsp;First, I'm assuming the planned Altair Lunar Modules are being designed as reusable elements of NASA's Constellation program that will travel indefinately back and forth between LEO and the moon. Part I of my question: Is my above assumption correct? Question Part II: When the Altair parks itself in LEO, will it (and Orion) free-fly and/or will it/can it park docked to the ISS? <br />Posted by PJay_A</DIV><br /><br /><font size="2"><font size="2">Altair (spacecraft) from Wiki</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>
 
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PJay_A

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Altair (spacecraft) from Wiki <br /> Posted by boris1961</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;So, Orion will have two completely different LEO destinations?:</p><p>1.&nbsp; ISS crew transfer</p><p>2.&nbsp; Or an awaiting fresh Altair with an Orbital Transfer Vehicle for lunar crew transfer</p><p>Both destinations would use Ares I to bring the Orion capsul into LEO, but an Ares V will carry the Altair/OTV complex unmanned into LEO for docking with a manned Orion. The Alair vehicles will remain on the moon, but the OTV will transfer Orion back to LEO. Correct?</p><p>Of all these elements, only Orion is reused. Correct?</p><p>More questions:</p><p>1. Have they estimated the cost of each Altair mission?</p><p>2. Will the Altair carry materials to the moon for lunar base construction or will another vehicle do that?</p><p>3. Will the used Altair vehicles be recycled as lunar base housing structures?</p><p>4. Can moon-traveling Orions dock to ISS on its return trip in situations where let's say an emergency endangers the craft from making an atmospheric reentry or materials taken from the moon need to be studied in the weightlessness of an ISS labortory? </p>
 
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Cygnus_2112

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Or an awaiting fresh Altair with an Orbital Transfer Vehicle for lunar crew transferBoth destinations would use Ares I to bring the Orion capsul into LEO, but an Ares V will carry the Altair/OTV complex unmanned into LEO for docking with a manned Orion. The Alair vehicles will remain on the moon, but the OTV will transfer Orion back to LEO. Correct?Of all these elements, only Orion is reused. Correct?More questions:1. Have they estimated the cost of each Altair mission?2. Will the Altair carry materials to the moon for lunar base construction or will another vehicle do that?3. Will the used Altair vehicles be recycled as lunar base housing structures?4. Can moon-traveling Orions dock to ISS on its return trip in situations where let's say an emergency endangers the craft from making an atmospheric reentry or materials taken from the moon need to be studied in the weightlessness of an ISS labortory? <br /> Posted by PJay_A</DIV></p><p>Not OTV but EDS.&nbsp; The EDS is used once to send the CEV and LSAM to the moon.&nbsp; The CEV returns on its own like Apollo, no need for the EDS.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>CEV can not return to the ISS.&nbsp; To much energy (propellant)&nbsp; required to go back into earth orbit.&nbsp;</p>
 
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MeteorWayne

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Not OTV but EDS.&nbsp; The EDS is used once to send the CEV and LSAM to the moon.&nbsp; The CEV returns on its own like Apollo, no need for the EDS.&nbsp;CEV can not return to the ISS.&nbsp; To much energy (propellant)&nbsp; required to go back into earth orbit.&nbsp; <br />Posted by Cygnus_2112</DIV><br /><br />When you throw out a pile of acronyms, it might be good to give the detail the first time you use one in a thread.</p><p>For example, what is EDS?</p><p>I happen to know what LSAM is, but other's might not. Some might not even know what CEV is.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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PJay_A

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>When you throw out a pile of acronyms, it might be good to give the detail the first time you use one in a thread.For example, what is EDS?I happen to know what LSAM is, but other's might not. Some might not even know what CEV is. <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>I have no idea what these acronyms mean. As I am now just familiarizing myself of the details of the Constellation program, only the acronyms and names I included in my posts are all I am aquainted with so far. It sounds to me that EDS, LSAM, etc. are additional elements to Constellation that I am not familiar with. Please define and describe.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Thank you.&nbsp;</p>
 
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hal9891

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<p>As far as I know :&nbsp;</p><p><strong>EDS</strong> - Earth Departure Stage - second stage of Ares V booster used to take Orion and lunar lander to Moon.&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CEV</strong> - Crew Exploration Vehicle - Orion capsule.</p><p><strong>LSAM</strong> - Lunar Surface Access Module - Altair lunar lander</p><p><strong>OTV</strong> - Orbit Transfer Vehicle?</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div style="text-align:center"><font style="color:#808080" color="#999999"><font size="1">"I predict that within 100 years computers will be twice as powerful, 10000 times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe will own them"</font></font><br /></div> </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Find out what any acronym, abbreviation, or initialism stands for <br />Posted by boris1961</DIV><br /><br />Cool Tool, fearless leader thanks you! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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qso1

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<p><font color="#800080">Maybe you could simply bring a new descent stage and dock them? It seems a real waste to cart everything out for every mission. Posted by scottb50</font></p><p>The descent stage is requred to allow Altair to land on the moon. Once that job is done, it remains behind. There is currently no practical way to recover descent stages. There is the possibility that SSTO would wor. A fully fueled SSTO lands on the moon and returns to lunar orbit intact. However, Altair is not an SSTO design and there are currently no plans for a SSTO lunar lander. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
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Boris_Badenov

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Cool Tool, fearless leader thanks you! <br />Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p><br /><img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/10/0d2bce14-972c-4736-8af0-fe605aceb8ce.Medium.gif" alt="" />&nbsp; <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/1/fa5d3e05-5692-4835-b175-85362b82f6ba.Medium.gif" alt="" />&nbsp; <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/2/eb440e16-af8c-4802-826c-25865cec3598.Medium.gif" alt="" /><br /><br /></p><p><br /><br />&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>
 
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willpittenger

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Maybe you could simply bring a new descent stage and dock them? It seems a real waste to cart everything out for every mission. Posted by scottb50The descent stage is requred to allow Altair to land on the moon. Once that job is done, it remains behind. There is currently no practical way to recover descent stages. There is the possibility that SSTO would wor. A fully fueled SSTO lands on the moon and returns to lunar orbit intact. However, Altair is not an SSTO design and there are currently no plans for a SSTO lunar lander.</p><p>Posted by qso1</DIV><br /><br />BTW: I suggested a year ago (or more) that we refuel landers on the surface.&nbsp; They then launch on their own when needed. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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keermalec

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>BTW: I suggested a year ago (or more) that we refuel landers on the surface.&nbsp; They then launch on their own when needed. <br />Posted by willpittenger</DIV><br /><br />That is the way to go, but it will not happen soon. Refuelling and re-using a lander involves:</p><p>1. Producing propellant on the Moon (involves extraction, refining, storage, transport)<br />2. Building a launch facility on the Moon (involves producing lunar concrete, importing equipement)<br />3. Carrying the lander from its landing position to the launch facility (involves shipping a lunar crawler to the Moon)</p><p>All these things will require permanent servicing and therefore a permanent presence on the Moon.</p><p>In answer to the original queastion: we are still very far from having reusable vehicles in space.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>“An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” John F. Kennedy</em></p> </div>
 
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willpittenger

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That is the way to go, but it will not happen soon. Refuelling and re-using a lander involves:1. Producing propellant on the Moon (involves extraction, refining, storage, transport)2. Building a launch facility on the Moon (involves producing lunar concrete, importing equipement)3. Carrying the lander from its landing position to the launch facility (involves shipping a lunar crawler to the Moon)All these things will require permanent servicing and therefore a permanent presence on the Moon.In answer to the original queastion: we are still very far from having reusable vehicles in space.</p><p>Posted by keermalec</DIV><br />Actually, my version was simpler.&nbsp; The landing field <u><em>is</em></u> the launch pad.&nbsp; You don't need to move it.&nbsp; At first, you don't even need a hard surface.&nbsp; Later, those might be handy.&nbsp; But not required for the first missions.&nbsp; Yes, the rest could be a problem, but all the ones you mentioned. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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shuttle_guy

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>QUESTION:&nbsp;First, I'm assuming the planned Altair Lunar Modules are being designed as reusable elements of NASA's Constellation program that will travel indefinately back and forth between LEO and the moon. Part I of my question: Is my above assumption correct? Question Part II: When the Altair parks itself in LEO, will it (and Orion) free-fly and/or will it/can it park docked to the ISS? <br />Posted by PJay_A</DIV></p><p>Part 1 ans: No</p><p>Part II Taking the Altair to the ISS would be a waste of delta V capability.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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shuttle_guy

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If I'm not mistaken the idea is pretty much the same as with Apollo. There would not be a return to LEO, instead there would be a direct return. I would have to look further but I believe the moon lander would also function like the Apollo did, returning to the orbiting Earth return vehicle. I would think the lander could be kept parked in orbit for multiple uses, but I doubt that is in the plans either.&nbsp; <br />Posted by scottb50</DIV></p><p>Apollo did not bring the lander ascent stage back to Earth (except on Apollo 13 when it was dumped just prior to re-entry of the command module.)<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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shuttle_guy

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>When you throw out a pile of acronyms, it might be good to give the detail the first time you use one in a thread.For example, what is EDS?I happen to know what LSAM is, but other's might not. Some might not even know what CEV is. <br />Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>EDS is the Earth Departure Stage....the upper stage of the Ares V<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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