As mass increases approaching the speed of light

[sheldon32nd]

Asfar as i can see in all related threads on varous websights and articles, as an object approaches the speed of light its mass increases. The general rule is that because of the mass of the object increasing to near unlimited mass, it would take near unlimited energy to keep that object accelerating to "c". <br /><br />My Question is this. In Theory, if a ship did have the ablility to cary enough fule to accelerate within the amount of time required to reach the speed of light, say 1 million years "exact calaulation is unknown". If the mass of the object and of the fule caryed also increases in mass. Then dosnt that meen that the weight of the fule also increases to near unlimited mass, therefor the unlimited energy required is actually their. The weight of the fule increases so that its force went from say 10 lb of thrust, to millions of lb of thrust using the same amount of fule "the fule now weighs 1,000,000 lb's. near the speed of light. <br /><br />I'm just trying to understand that if people are telling me that the weight of the ship has increased a million times. then hasnt the weight of the fule also increased a million times, meening that if it was giving constant 10 lb of thrust, then that 10 lb has increased to 10,000,000 lb of thrust relative to everyone else, but on the ship its still just looking like 10 lb of thrust? <br /><br />Is any of this making sence? <br /><br />IF the ship weight is unlimited, then the fule now weighs unlimited, so, as the weight of the fule is bruned and pushed against, the unlimited weight of the fule is now enough to push the ship faster than the speed of light. as weight increases, it increase for every aspect of the ship.<br /><br />I'm just rambeling now, sorry if this dosnt make sence.

 

[unlearningthemistakes]

http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=askastronomer&Number=395396&page=4&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&vc=1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>

 

[sheldon32nd]

It was that poste that got me thinking of this idea. I didnt find anywhere in that post however that took into consideration that the energy required was actually being created by the object itself approaching the speed of light.<br /><br />I'm just trying to see if their is anywhere anyone can post about a study or research done into this point. <br /><br />"the weight of the fule on the ship has gained mass/weight also. therefore as the ship itself requires more energy, that energy is being created by the fule also gaining weight"<br /><br />is this a sound idea, has someone allready proven that the mass of the fule wouldnt be enough to keep pushing the ship even though its increase in weight is technically enough to keep the ship speeding up?<br /><br />Remember, If the ship has increased in weight, so has the fule, therefor the weight of the fule relaitve to the rest of the universe justlike the ship has increased. meening. the fule's weight to be pushed against is enough to keep the ship accelerating.<br /><br />"ship weighs 100 lb, fule weighs 50lb, creates 10 lb of thrust"<br /><br />At Higher Speeds, Ship weighs 1,000,000 lb, Fule now weighs 500,000 and creats 10,000lb of thrust. <br /><br />????????<br />

 

[unlearningthemistakes]

BTW, welcome to SDC.<br /><br />first of all, don't mix mass with weight. they are not the same. <br />I'll make this short because my eyes are already drowsy. even if you had infinite amount of fuel, the shuttle or ship's mass will fight against the increase in speed. as the ship increases it's speed, so does the mass. and further increase in mass will make it more hungry for energy. so in summation, increase in fuel mass can never compensate for the increase in energy requirement. <br /><br />that is the very reason why photons could travel light speed. because they are massless particles (by theory). it doesn't fight against speed and their energy is not all lost in transit. <br /><br />(we can see several galaxy's images, though they are several hundred million Lyears away. the light energy from them was able to reach us after millions of years...)<br /><br />Im going to sleep now....till next. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>

 

[sheldon32nd]

I understand that Mass is the amount of density an object has in the amount of space its total area is. <br /><br />If i understand correctly, the mass of the object to us is increasing, but so is the mass of the fule inside the ship. Its effect on everything around it is more. My point is that because it requires more thrust because of its density increasing per amount of space it takesup relative to everything aroud it. So does the mass of the fuel itself. Ergo, the ship has doubled in mass, but so has the mass of the fuel molicules, making their increase in mass equal to the increase in mass of the surrounding ship. If the ships mass requires more thrust to push it, then the mass of the fuel should still remain the same factored amount as required to accelerate. <br /><br />if the ratio of mass required to propell the ship at a given acceleration is say 10 to 1, then if the ships mass is 100 then the mass of the fuel is now 10, making the 10/1 ratio allow the ship to keep increasing.

 

[Saiph]

well, a few things to note here. First, to make the situation more confusing:<br /><br />The fuel has a higher "relativistic mass" to an outside observer. However, someone in the ships frame see's it behaving as standard. I.e. the ship, and the ships engine, chucks it out the back just as if it wasn't going at ~C.<br /><br />Last note: It isn't actually mass that's increasing. It's more appropriate to think of it as an increase in inertia (which is, in newton's mechanics the same as mass for linear motion) as opposed to a pure increase in actual mass. This makes a difference when trying to understand how gravity interacts with relativistic objects (answer: gravity only cares about "rest mass")<br /><br />Now, to resolve this:<br /><br />To an outside observer the increased mass of the fuel also takes increased amounts of energy to spit it out the back. Any gain produced by having a heavier fuel is, in this case, countered by the increased energy required to accelerate it.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[sheldon32nd]

SO i guess a good question would be. <br /><br />Is the increase in mass of the object just a relative perception by outside objects, or is it literally increasing in force because of its speed increase. E=MC^2<br /><br />Also, remember that this object is in open space, with in an area canceling out gravitational forces by objects around it creating null space. <br /><br />Heck, you can even say that the object is outside of the galaxy and actually traveling twords another galaxy "Gravity is Infrunt of it in greater amount than behind"<br /><br />

 

[kmarinas86]

<font color="yellow">Is the increase in mass of the object just a relative perception by outside objects, or is it literally increasing in force because of its speed increase. E=MC^2</font><br /><br />There is no increase in mass.<br /><br />Just an increase in inertia, like Saiph said.<br /><br />The increase would be where you have E * gamma, which is the same as energy * velocity time dilation, in units of energy. This is also like saying E * (coordinate time/proper time) increases, where proper time increases, but coordinate time increases at a faster rate, and E is constant.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_timehttp://www.google.com/search?q="coordinate+time"+"general+relativity"<br /><br />Also, the relativistic momentum of an object = mass * velocity * (coordinate time/proper time) <br />The object travelling at relativistic speeds is saying something like, "Give me enough proper time so I can change my direction, Thanks!"

 

[jatslo]

The brightest star in our sky has a companion that’s smaller than Earth yet 98 percent as massive as the Sun, a new study reveals.<br /><br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/051213_white_dwarf.html