Bell: Scrap The Stick Now

[radarredux]

Jeffery Bell's latest editorial calls for scrapping the current Ares I design. He mentions the usual: already changed second stage, increase to 5 segments, cost control problems, other concerns (e.g., steering). From a quick scan of the posting here (I've been vacationing in Europe for the last couple of weeks), it seems that there is a lot of grumbling about ATK's performance so far.<br /><br />Full story:<br /><br />Scrap The Stick Now<br />http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Scrap_The_Stick_Now_999.html

 

[steve82]

I don't think it's THAT horrible of an idea. It's a little early to be drawing all these conclusions that it is completely unworkable. I also take issue with his assertion that the main reason for it is to assure jobs for aerospace workers that would be lost otherwise as the STS program winds down: The NASA/Industry community has never had any problem with dumping employees once their charge numbers run out. It's probably the most efficient thing they do.

 

[rogers_buck]

Ah, but the pork is strong with the sticks...<br />

 

[scottb50]

probably a major consideration. The SRB's were pork from the beginning. Not getting the composite SRB's was driven more by keeping the operation in Utah than anything else.<br /><br />It's a wonder the Shuttle even came about, between the politics and the military it's no wonder it ended up being what it is. technology wise it should just be coming on line, not obsolete. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[holmec]

It seems a redesign is in order. Perhaps any current launcher would not be adequate either.<br /><br />Adding control systems would be an obvious answer, maybe fins at the bottom like the Saturn I rocket.<br /><br />Do conventional rocket use thursters at the top of the rocket? I'm just guessing. But today most stability problems are workable, like the F-16, B-2. <br /><br />Bell says:<br /> />So The Stick has turned out to have none of the properties attributed to it by its promoters. Instead of being simple, it is extremely complicated. Instead of being soon, it is late - so late that it cannot make a meaningful contribution to supporting the ISS. And the safety numbers assigned to it by NASA are sheer fantasy.<<br /><br />If this is true then it seems to be a challenge. There were things the Shuttle was supposed to do and never did, like a quick turn around, perhaps the same will happen here. Maybe no quick turn around and no reusable capsule, but we'll end up with some sort of working system. Perhaps this is where COTS can pick up the slack. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Since Bell hates everything to do with manned spaceflight (and most things unmanned) why should anything he says he be taken seriously?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[tomnackid]

Here's a unique idea: why not let actual aerospace engineers make the decision rather than web columnists and chatroom mavens! <br /><br />I never understood all of the talk about SRB's and "pork barrel" politics either. Rockets aren't made by gnomes in forest glens. They are big engineering made at big companies. And for all practical purposes they are custom jobs. It will be a long time before we need to crank out rockets on an assembly line at the rate GM cranks out pickup trucks.

 

[PistolPete]

It used to be that engineers actually made the decisions. But those were the days when people like Kelly Johnson ran Skunk Works, when companies were rewarded for bringin a project in under budget and ahead of schedual. But then the politicians and the accountaints and other people (like the ones who made Enron possible) realised that they were missing out on a lot of money by not micromanaging the engineers and throwing in extra pork to weigh down the project and line there own pockets. Now, if a company comes in under budget, they had better find a way to spend it, because if they try to give it back to the govornment (like they did in Kelly Johnson's day), they will actually be fined and penalised by the govornment. Politics and accountaints have made pork-barrel not only acceptable, but manditory in the industry. You cannot be an honest person and do a govornment contract. Honesty and the govornment are mutually exclusive <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><em>So, again we are defeated. This victory belongs to the farmers, not us.</em></p><p><strong>-Kambei Shimada from the movie Seven Samurai</strong></p> </div>

 

[tomnackid]

You can be honest and work with the government...you just need something most people don't have anymore...balls! You have to have the balls to walk away. The balls to give up multimillion dollar contracts. The balls to defy the board of directors. Unfortunately most CEOs today would rather be megarich failures than reasonably well-off successes.

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">Since Bell hates everything to do with manned spaceflight (and most things unmanned) why should anything he says he be taken seriously?</font>/i><br /><br />Bell can do a pretty good job at summarizing many of the facts. His recent editorial largely reflects the same issues discussed in several different threads on these boards. Just because we don't like his position doesn't mean all his facts, arguments, conclusions, and predictions are universally wrong.</i>

 

[barrykirk]

Interesting.... very interesting......<br /><br />Read the actual Jeff Bell article and understood everything made sense, but I'm sure that people who know more than me could poke holes in his arguments.

 

[JonClarke]

Bell's "facts" are carefully selected, deliberately distorted, fliutered through his prejudices, and then expressed with spleen and invective. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Tell us what you really think, Jon <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I am just jealous I don't get asked to write opeds <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Hey you can always write one. They never ask (unless you're famous).<br />The trick is to write it, then getting someone to print it.<br />It can be happen. Even a rational person like me can get it done every once in a while.<br /><br />MeateorHead Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Been there, done that (on other topics). When it comes to space, I am too busy publishing research, which is all done in my spare time. Bell's retired, so he can do opeds <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[publiusr]

The only thing that worries me is the possibility that--if the Stick (Ares I) takes too long--the chance of getting the CaLV lessens over time.<br /><br />Then we will have three EELV class boosters and no HLLV.<br /><br />That stinks.

 

[barrykirk]

Can you point me to some links to that research?<br /><br />I'd really like to see it.

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Barry<br /><br />Some of the stuff I have been working on recently can be found in this volume which I edited and contributed to.<br /><br />http://www.univelt.com/htmlST/htmlMars/V111STCONT.pdf<br /><br />I am currently working with colleagues on a paper on inverted relief on Mars and a Mars transfer vehicle, and one on a proposed field trial of water production from hydrated minerals.<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[barrykirk]

Thanks for the info