Beta Pictoris planet imaged?

[3488]

<p><font size="4">Beta Pictoris planet imaged?</font><br /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/10/bf1c0595-4266-41cf-8a37-109c4dd46e35.Medium.jpg" alt="" /><br />&nbsp;</p><p><font size="2"><strong>Andrew Brown.&nbsp;</strong></font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

Interesting ! So we may have a 8X Jupiter at Saturns orbit.&nbsp; Is it just me or do I sense "we" are entering another golden age of astronomy.&nbsp; We are imaging planets, ever closer to their primary .... something I really hadn't expected for another 10-20 yrs.&nbsp; Can spectroscopy of these planets be far behind ? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'><font color="#ff0000">Interesting ! So we may have a 8X Jupiter at Saturns orbit.&nbsp; Is it just me or do I sense "we" are entering another golden age of astronomy.&nbsp; We are imaging planets, ever closer to their primary .... something I really hadn't expected for another 10-20 yrs.&nbsp; Can spectroscopy of these planets be far behind ? <br /> Posted by Mee_n_Mac</font></DIV></p><p><font size="2"><strong>Hi Mee_n_Mac,</strong></font></p><p><font size="2"><strong>I do not think spectroscopy for these planets (Fomalhaut b, HR8799 b, c & d & Beta Pictoris b), will be long now. Once the planet can be isolated from the parent Sun, as these five have, then doing the same with spectroscopes using the same telescopes should be doable. Hubble is certainly capable, as is the ESO, KECK, Ebberly, SUBARU, etc.</strong></font></p><p><font size="2"><strong>Looking forward also now to seeing the first planet around a red giant, like those found (but not actually imaged as yet) around Pollux (Beta Geminorum) & Iota Draconis. Getting the spectra of planets around both young & old stars alike will be a real boon.</strong></font></p><p><font size="2"><strong>Andrew Brown.&nbsp;</strong></font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

<font size="3">That is very cool.&nbsp; I wonder if the researchers are annoyed that they were scooped by last week's announcement.&nbsp; Also, I wonder if they have announced a little prematurely to keep from getting scooped again.&nbsp; It seems to me that at a Saturn distance, it shouldn't take too long to establish an orbit and the fact it is in orbit.&nbsp; Therefore, I wonder why an orbit has not yet been established.</font>

 

[MeteorWayne]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That is very cool.&nbsp; I wonder if the researchers are annoyed that they were scooped by last week's announcement.&nbsp; Also, I wonder if they have announced a little prematurely to keep from getting scooped again.&nbsp; It seems to me that at a Saturn distance, it shouldn't take too long to establish an orbit and the fact it is in orbit.&nbsp; Therefore, I wonder why an orbit has not yet been established. <br />Posted by robnissen</DIV><br /><br />Do you know how long Saturn's orbit takes? Do you know how long these observations have been made? Do you know the positional error bars for these type of measurements at the distance of Beta Pictoris?</p><p>If you research these issues it will be clear why an orbit has not been established. </p><p>Believe it or not, science is real tough work!!</p><p>Wayne</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Do you know how long Saturn's orbit takes? Do you know how long these observations have been made? Do you know the positional error bars for these type of measurements at the distance of Beta Pictoris?If you research these issues it will be clear why an orbit has not been established. Believe it or not, science is real tough work!!Wayne <br />Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p><font size="3">Uh .... yes.&nbsp; Saturn's orbit is about 30 years, which is about one degree per month.&nbsp; Even two pictures a few months apart should be more than enough to calculate an orbit.&nbsp; But I do agree with the fact that "science is real tough work."</font><br /></p>

 

[3488]

Amazing stuff.

Has one heck of an eccentric orbit, from about 10 AU at Periastron (roughly the orbit of Saturn) to an apastron of approx 20 AU (roughly the orbit of Uranus). Orbital period is approx 12 years.

Beta Pictoris planet reimaged & orbital motion followed around Beta Pictoris.



Andrew Brown.

 

[smwilson31]

Interesting article written with a lot of passion, article and thread go hand in hand.

Living in that solar system the savage planetary orbits wouldn't do us many favours, shows how unique intelligent life can be.

 

[robnissen]

Amazing stuff.

Has one heck of an eccentric orbit, from about 10 AU at Periastron (roughly the orbit of Saturn) to an apastron of approx 20 AU (roughly the orbit of Uranus). Orbital period is approx 12 years.

Beta Pictoris planet reimaged & orbital motion followed around Beta Pictoris.



Andrew Brown.

I do not understand the picture attached here and also in the article at sdc.com:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 00610.html


Why is the reflected dust disk only to the left and right of the star? Shouldn't the reflective dusk disk make a ring around the star? I don't really understand how the gravity from the star/planet could clear the dust "north/south" of the star, but not "east/west" (I am referring to the plane of the dust, not a sphere.)

 

[3488]

Hi smwilson31.

Very true, would be a bit like a wrecking ball. This planet is thought to have a mass of approx eight times that of Jupiter or approx 2,554 Earths.

Beta Pictoris is likely to be left with a huge asteroid belt, like the one orbiting the star Zeta Leporis in Lepus (though Zeta Leporis does not appear to have any large planets). Perhaps planets in orbits like Mercury & Venus could form, but
Beta Pictoris is some nine times more powerful than our Sun.

Beta Pictoris is a quick rotator taking only about 16 hours to rotate once as against 25 days for our Sun. Beta Pictoris is also very young, barely 12 million years old (0.012 GYO), as against 4,540 million years (4.540 GYO).

Hi Rob,

Best way to think of this, think of Saturn's rings being almost though not totally edge on.

This is what we are seeing here, except they are shining from sunlight emitted from Beta Pictoris & are approx 400 AU wide.

The protoplanetary disk is almost sidewise on from the view point from our Solar System. Our Sun would be close to the ecliptic of this planet (only our Sun would currently be of approx 8th Magnitude from Beta Pictoris).

Andrew Brown.

 

[MeteorWayne]

If you read the linked article, you will find the disk is from an image from 1996, when the only way to see it was with the star itself blocked out by an occulting disk (much as the SOHO LASCO images don't show the sun itself). The planet observations were taken much later (in 2003 and 2008) using improved technology.

MW

 

[DarkSands]

I do not understand the picture attached here and also in the article at sdc.com:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 00610.html


Why is the reflected dust disk only to the left and right of the star? Shouldn't the reflective dusk disk make a ring around the star? I don't really understand how the gravity from the star/planet could clear the dust "north/south" of the star, but not "east/west" (I am referring to the plane of the dust, not a sphere.)

The black part in the middle is a piece of metal over the telescope to block out the star's light, without it you wouldn't be able to see anything but the star. The disk itself does go all the way around the star.

Its an awesome picture, but it will be even better when we start getting higher resolution pictures of exoplanets.

 

[EarthlingX]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=davqgeZgJgU[/youtube]

 

[robnissen]

The black part in the middle is a piece of metal over the telescope to block out the star's light, without it you wouldn't be able to see anything but the star. The disk itself does go all the way around the star.

I appreciate the answers, but I guess I'm just slow I still don't get it.

1. If we are edge on to the disk to the "north/south" of the star, then we would also be edge on to the disk "east/west" of the star. If it is so thin that we can't see the "north/south" disk from our distance, it seems to me that we should not be able to see the "east/west" disk.

2. I get the black-out disk, but obviously where the planet is, it is not blacked out, otherwise we couldn't see the planet. Maybe the answer is that the planet shines brightly enough that we can see it through the dust disk, the same way that we can see the star through the dust disk. But as planets shine MUCH less brightly than their host stars, it would certainly be harder to see a planet through a dust disk, but I suppose it might not be impossible.

Cool youtube video btw.

 

[MeteorWayne]

We are looking at the disk edge on. It's not a circle around the star. It's more like looking at Saturn's rings from earth. It only extends in the "east-west" direction from our viewpoint.

 

[nimbus]

 

[3488]

Thanks nimbus,

That's perfect, to illustrate the point.

I think the view of the Beta Pictoris disk is similar to the second from top Saturn view from Hubble Space Telescope.

Andrew Brown.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Yes, somewhere between the second and the third from the top. That is still under investigation. You're probeably right on the second being the better angle.

 

[DarkSands]

I appreciate the answers, but I guess I'm just slow I still don't get it.

1. If we are edge on to the disk to the "north/south" of the star, then we would also be edge on to the disk "east/west" of the star. If it is so thin that we can't see the "north/south" disk from our distance, it seems to me that we should not be able to see the "east/west" disk.

2. I get the black-out disk, but obviously where the planet is, it is not blacked out, otherwise we couldn't see the planet. Maybe the answer is that the planet shines brightly enough that we can see it through the dust disk, the same way that we can see the star through the dust disk. But as planets shine MUCH less brightly than their host stars, it would certainly be harder to see a planet through a dust disk, but I suppose it might not be impossible.

Cool youtube video btw.

Taken directly from the article posted above:

This picture is actually a composite of three separate observations. The outer part with the blue fuzzy stuff was observed in 1996, and I’ll get back to that in a sec. The good stuff is in the center: two images of the planet, called Beta Pic b, are superposed in the picture; it was observed in 2003 (left blob), then again in late 2009 (right blob). Observations taken just months before in 2008 and 2009 observation didn’t show the blob at all — it must have been too close to the star to be seen clearly — indicating this really is a planet orbiting the star, and not just some background object like a star or galaxy

Its three different pictures, the disk and the black circle blocking the sun were taken in 1996, then the planet circle were taken in 2003 and 2009, they then added the three images together to make the one you see. I would assume when they blacked out the sun later, so they could see the planet, they used a much smaller cover, that way it wouldn't block out the planet as well.

 

[nimbus]

If you look really close at the ESA full resolution pic, you can make out what looks like a smaller occulter.

 

[Balthazar579]

Amazing stuff.

Has one heck of an eccentric orbit, from about 10 AU at Periastron (roughly the orbit of Saturn) to an apastron of approx 20 AU (roughly the orbit of Uranus). Orbital period is approx 12 years.

Beta Pictoris planet reimaged & orbital motion followed around Beta Pictoris.



Andrew Brown.

Am I the only one who sees the round object in the disk? at the very top, left hand side, in the middle? Another planet, perhaps?

EDIT: Not the middle, but the middle right, left half of the disk. Also, the disk seems to move around it. It's a sihlouette(I know I spelled that wrong). But really, look at it...

 

[3488]

Welcome to SDC Balthazar570 & hope you stay.

I agree, to the uninitiated it DOES look like another planet or some large object transiting across the disk.

Unfortunately, the truth is rather more mundane & boring. It is a drop out on the CCD.

Mind you could you imagine such a fluke if a previously unknown giant KBO like 134340 Pluto or 136199 Eris, orbiting our own Sun in a hugely inclined orbit happened to be transiting Beta Pictoris???????

Unfortunately is a drop out on the CCD, nothing more I'm afraid.

Please though if there is nything else you notice that we have missed, then please let us know on here. :mrgreen:

Andrew Brown.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Amazing stuff.

Has one heck of an eccentric orbit, from about 10 AU at Periastron (roughly the orbit of Saturn) to an apastron of approx 20 AU (roughly the orbit of Uranus). Orbital period is approx 12 years.

May I ask where you are getting this from? The discovery paper says;

http://www.eso.org/public/archives/rele ... so1024.pdf

In order to constrain the orbital parameters of β Pictoris b, we took the projected separation measured in November 2003 and computed the expected position of the planet in 2009 (SOM), assuming that it moves in a prograde [following (25)], circular orbit within the disk or close to the plane of the disk. Comparison between the expected projected separation in December 2009 and the observed position implies that the planet‟s semi-major axis is between 8 and 13 AU (Fig. S3). This leads to orbital periods of 17-35 yr for the planet. The semi-major axis is less strongly constrained in the case of an eccentric orbit because of the unknown longitude of the periastron. However, for the probable case of a moderate eccentricity [e < 0.05 (26)], the semi-major axis must be in the range 8-15 AU. These orbital parameters are compatible with the non-detection at L‟-band in February 2009 (Fig. 2), given the 4-sigma detection limits at this date which correspond to projected separations of 6.5 AU. Thus, β Pictoris b orbits closer to its parent star than Uranus and Neptune do in the Solar System.

So here they don’t seem to expect the eccentricity to be particularly high. Apparently this is assumed from previous observations of the disc.

Either way the observations so far don't seemed to have pinned down the actual eccentricity much.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Please insert a link to the discovery paper you posted.
Thanx,
Meteor Wayne

 

[alpha_centauri]

Oops forgot to add the link in the above, edited.

It's Lagrange's paper available from the bottom of the ESO article,

http://www.eso.org/public/news/eso1024/

Unfortunately it appears some of the supporting information the paper refers to isn't linked to as well

As it's the discovery paper and it doesn't seem to indicate they think it has especially high eccentricity, suggesting only relatively moderate upper limits, was just wondering where this idea that it had especially high eccentricity was coming from.