black hole questions

why06 · Feb 16, 2006

I understand alot about back holes, but some parts are still fuzzy Such as- 1. How could the quasar, a colum of accelerating particles, possibly excape a Black hole when the excape velocity is c. I do understand that someone recently proved that matter accelerating at 57.7 % the speed of light forms an antigravity beam,but I'm not sure how this works...oh I'll just give you the quote- <blockquote>In reply to:<hr /> Dr. Felber's paper states that a mass moving faster than 57.7 percent of the speed of light will gravitationally repel other masses lying within a narrow 'antigravity beam' in front of it. This "beam" intensifies as the speed of the mass approaches that of light. The paper shows how to use the repulsion of a body speeding through space to accelerate large spacecraft quickly while reducing internal tidal forces that could tear the cargo apart. The paper argues that the payload would "fall weightlessly" in an antigravity beam as it is accelerated to a substantial fraction of light speed. As seen here the material exiting the quasar coould produce an anti gravity beam enabling it to escape a black hole withoute exceding light speed.</blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

CalliArcale · Feb 16, 2006

There's already a thread about the antigrav thing over in Space Business & Technology if you want to discuss that: 'Antigravity' Propulsion System Proposed Regarding your question about quasars: Quasars have a jet of particles escaping over their poles at nearly the speed of light. How can this be, since nothing, not even light, can escape a black hole? The answer is surprisingly simple. They never actually entered the black hole. These are particles which came terrifyingly close to going in, but were on the wrong trajectory to do so; they were instead propelled away from the black hole at high velocity, generally over its rotational poles. It's a phenomenon similar to the gravity assist maneuvers that allowed the Voyager spacecraft to accelerate to their incredible speeds. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

harmonicaman · Feb 16, 2006

"How could the quasar, a column of accelerating particles, possibly escape a Black hole when the escape velocity is c." We really don't have a very complete idea of what is occurring in a Quasar which causes it to be so energetic. Here's a Quasar webpage. Just some speculation... Quasars may have formed during the earliest moments of the big bang. If this is the case, the central black hole may have formed before all the matter and anti-matter of the early universe had a chance to annihilate each other (leaving the regular matter we see in the universe today). We could be observing left over remnants of this matter/anti-matter annihilation going on in the Quasars. This particle annihilation dies out over time which is why there are no "Old" Quasars.

extrasense · Feb 16, 2006

This "news" article is a hoax. The claims are invalid. ES

why06 · Feb 16, 2006

Hold on I just got two different responses explaining this phenomenom. And in Response to: There's already a thread about the antigrav thing over in Space Business & Technology if you want to discuss that: 'Antigravity' Propulsion System Proposed Proposed I'm sorry I dropped off- had to go to launch-anyway what I was trying to say was if the accelerating particles produced a beam of anti gravity it would counter-act the immense gravitational field. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

why06 · Feb 16, 2006

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />We really don't have a very complete idea of what is occurring in a Quasar which causes it to be so energetic That was exactly what I needed to know. If no one has a complete idea of what a quasar is it's open for discussion. Also could I ask one more question? Are quasar only in black holes which are sucking things in at the moment?</blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

Saiph · Feb 16, 2006

Current models of quasars that say they are only "active" black holes do well in describing what we see. So, it's a valid claim that quasars are merely black holes with material falling in. It's believed then, that most galaxies have supermassive black holes in the center, they're just not "eating" right now. Very compelling evidence for our own milky way having a BH in the core has come to light. Basically we've seen stars orbit very, very, very massive, incredibly compact but completely "invisible" (as it isn't producing light) object in the core of hte milky way. Best/only candidate for explaination: really big black hole. Anyway, as far as the antigravity article: Isn't needed to explain jets in quasars. It's easily explained as calli said: Material that almost, but not quite, entered the BH. Falling in got it really moving, and a slightly distorted orbit and magnetic fields (and a rotating BH) all work to produce very fast moving particles leaving the BH along the rotation axis (magnetic fields funnel the particles there). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

why06 · Feb 16, 2006

But what about what harmonicman said? Antimatter is the most explosive substance in the universe. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

Saiph · Feb 16, 2006

IIRC none of the observations show signs of antimatter matter annihilation there (which are certain distribtutions/orientations of gamma rays and other factors). I can't rule it out, but I haven't heard of any support for the idea as anything other than speculation (I used to be pretty close to the quasar field...as close as an undergrad can get anyway). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

harmonicaman · Feb 17, 2006

Why06 - What I said about the Quasars emissions being the result of matter/anti-matter annihilation is certainly counter to mainstream scientific thought concerning Quasars. The reason I offered this opinion was because I have trouble with the accepted view that a Quasar's energetic plumes are a result of some kind of black hole over consumption or any interaction at all with the material entering from outside the Quasar. Here are a few of my questions: 1. Why do we only see Quasars in the youngest part of the universe? 2. Explain the mechanics of how and why material entering a black hole can be spun away from the event horizon and collide at the poles of a Quasar to create these plumes. (I'm not saying this can't be what's happening; I just need more convincing.) 3. Why don't we see Quasar like plumes from older super-massive black holes that are absorbing huge amounts of cosmic debris (due to galactic collisions and other cosmic misadventures)? I just think that a Quasar might be creating these plumes all on its own and they might not be the result of the influence of material entering from the outside. Quasars may be holding onto the last vestiges of Inflation, and the interactions of space and time at the earliest moments of the Big Bang. Some other thoughts concerning Quasars... Could they have formed so rapidly in the early universe that they trapped bubbles of space and time within their black hole -- and this is what is escaping through the poles? Do we have any evidence of "Dying" Quasars? I believe Quasars may actually be more "Exotic" than we are giving them credit for...

Saiph · Feb 17, 2006

1) We don't see them only in the youngest portion of the universe. We see some of the most active there, which makes sense as thats when you'll have the most free-floating gas. You may have made this mistake because closer quasars are often referred to as AGN, active galactic nuclei, because we can actually see the host galaxy (and historically were categorized seperately until the quasar, AGN link was established). 2) As the material moves towards the BH, several things can happen. First, the magnetic field of the rotating BH can add to the angular momentum of the material, thus increasing it's orbital speed. The "frame dragging" effect can also do this as well. If the particle isn't headed straight in, it'll move slightly towards the poles. The magnetic field will shift the particles orbit into a "helix" which spirals the particle up along the rotation axis. Adding angular momentum (since the field is rotating with the BH) and the orbit gets tighter and tighter, focused near the poles. Does this cause material to fall in? Yes. but there is a lot of material. These mechanisms thus allow some of the infalling matter to be sped up, and focused along the rotation axis, creating jets. 3) We do, see #1. AGN's have observed polar jets, and those are older bh's absorbing materials. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

why06 · Feb 18, 2006

You explained what would happen at a rotating black hole. Are they also in non-rotating black holes? Also if gas is drawn in, it would naturally try to expand, forming air pockets. eventually the air pressure could become so high that it explodes outward towards the poles, creating a ring like singularity which keeps a constant income of matter and antimatter. As the antimatter colides it produces a narrow stream in the center of the ring singularity where the gravities of each side of the ring cancel each other out and the magnetic field accelerates the particles outward wear the excape velocity is not c. I think? Also I have trouble believing that anything could be infanitely small or a singularityas everything in this universe has some size. These compressed gasses might be forced out as an act of diffusion or when a Bh was to tight it might cause rift into another dimension exploding until it lost enough matter, but the incominng of gas might effect this. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

Saiph · Feb 18, 2006

Well..there really shouldn't be any non-rotating BH's (afterall, everything we have ever seen is rotating). Most of the accretion disk is still near vacuum. It does have a bit of a width, some of that is due to pressure. But it won't have the explosive, pole-oriented expansion you describe. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

extrasense · Feb 19, 2006

"slightly" off topic: is it known, that that newtonean gravitational mass attraction is exactly corect in the General Relativity, in the traveller's coordinate system? e <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> s

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