Bullets in space stations

[willpittenger]

A recent CNN article noted that no guns would be sent to ISS due to the possibility of puncturing the skin. However, the FAA already solved this problem. Check out Frangible bullets on Wikipedia. They fragment into powder if they hit something hard. Flesh causes them to behave normally. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[qso1]

Question is, will the bullet dissolve before making a significant hole? It appears in general that a frangible bullet will disintegrate upon striking concrete or steel but what about relatively this aluminum such as that found in aircraft or spacecraft skins? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[vulture2]

At one time I believe the Soyuz carried a pistol in its survival kit, a precaution against another landing in Siberia where the crew was once threatened by wolves. However a hijacker or terrorist threat on the ISS is sufficiently unlikely that a weapon would be an unwarranted risk.

 

[1cooldaddyo]

I was just imagining firing a gun in freefall. Recoil takes on a whole new meaning.

 

[soyuztma]

The Soyuz spacecraft still carries a gun: Mark Shuttleworth: pistol shot <br />And this is a picture of Ansari practising with the gun. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[josh_simonson]

Frangible bullets are usually made so that they disintegrate upon hitting something as wimpy as drywall. In fact it'll make a nice hole in the first layer of drywall, but the resulting dust will only make a hump-like deformation on the second layer. This prevents bullets from tearing through 20 units in an appartment building, for instance.<br /><br />However, the space station may not be able to survive such a hit, certainly windows and some pieces of critical machinery would cause serious problems if they were hit, even with a frangible bullet. Moreover, bullets aren't really needed on the ISS because they're best at moderately long ranges, 5 to 30+ yards. ISS doesn't have any open areas where someone could be out of range of a taser gun or other 'safer' weapon.<br /><br />That said, there is some fun that could be had with guns in space. Imagine doing an EVA with one and plinking at the earth - you'd see the bullets burn up when they hit the atmosphere!

 

[trailrider]

" 'That said, there is some fun that could be had with guns in space. Imagine doing an EVA with one and plinking at the earth - you'd see the bullets burn up when they hit the atmosphere!' <br /><br />Not if you shot at the Earth."<br /><br />From the photo of the survival gun being fired, I'd say it was a bit heftier than a 9 mm Parabellum (Luger). Shooting such a gun in space would probably send the shooter into some interesting gyrations, depending on how the gun was held, the bullet mass, and the mass of the shooter plus the gun.<br /><br />Unless you were anchored to the ISS pretty firmly, you might wind up in your own orbit! And to keep from spinning out of control, you'd better hold it so the recoil was through your center of mass! In-space you'd be better off with a Gyrojet gun! On the Moon or Mars, the trajectories would be pretty flat! A really high-velocity cartridge might actually send the bullet into orbit (around the moon), which means you might have to take the shot and then duck IN FRONT of something so the bullet wouldn't hit you from behind!<br /><br />I think I'll post this over on the Cowboy Action Shooting forum. Might make for some interesting thoughts for "Space Cowboys"! <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <br />

 

[cyclonebuster]

This is great news we should issue everyone a handgun now before getting on a airplane!!<br />Thay way a bad guy doesn't have a chance!!

 

[qso1]

vulture2:<br />At one time I believe the Soyuz carried a pistol in its survival kit...<br /><br />Me:<br />I recall hearing that as well. Siberia is a harsh place to have to come down in. I also agree the terrorist threat is of such low probability that a pistol on ISS is probably not warranted. In the event of the remote terrorist possibility, an astronaut terrorist would probably find some other way to disable ISS. Wouldn't really need a gun. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

josh_simonson:<br />Frangible bullets are usually made so that they disintegrate upon hitting something as wimpy as drywall...<br /><br />Me:<br />Thanks for the info. I wasn't that familiar with frangible bullets. The drywall analogy clears it up for me, thanks. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[skyone]

A terrorist astronaut on the ISS is unimaginable. A significant concern I think, might arise from one aboard a Bigelow tourist hotel.

 

[qso1]

Skyone:<br />A terrorist astronaut on the ISS is unimaginable.<br /><br />Me:<br />I imagined it, so you can be sure NASA, the CIA, and anyone else working security concerns relating to human spaceflight has imagined such a scenario. One has to in order to take necessary preventative steps.<br /><br />But as you also mentioned, the concern with the Bigelow hotels...definitely a more plausible scenario and another one that is probably being discussed. I would imagine anyone wanting to go on a space tourist flight will get thorough scrutinizing. In a way, it would be easier to scrutinize the space tourist because they will recieve some level of training and there simply won't be nearly as many space tourists for awhile anyway. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[spacefire]

A Lisa on the Shuttle is pretty imaginable <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

"At one time I believe the Soyuz carried a pistol in its survival kit,..."<br /><br />Shenzou crew carry a pistol in their survival kits.<br /><br />I don't think any American crew ever carried a weapon as part of their survival kits, but that difference from Soyuz/Shenzou practice make perfect sense when you think about it.<br /><br />American spacecraft were designed for recovery on water or on a runway. In either case it's hard to see any utility for a handgun.<br /><br />The Soyuz and Shenzou are designed for recovery on land, and the history of Soyuz recoveries have shown them landing in some rather isolated and risky locations on occasion. So a handgun makes perfect sense for those spacecraft.<br /><br />Is anyone familiar with the survival kit carried by the Gemini crew? Because the Gemini spacecraft had ejection seats it was possible for the Gemini crew to make an emergency recovery on dry land. So a handgun could have been usefull to a Gemini crew.

 

[docm]

IIRC the old USAF survival packs had an AR-5/AR-7 rifle, but not sure if they ever used it in the NASA spacecraft. I doubt it.<br /><br />BTW: Soyuz carries a folding stock <i><b><font color="yellow">combo gun </font></b></i>(shotgun shell/bullet/flare), even during the Apollo-Soyuz missions (source) <br /><br />Not only that but the Salyut-3 is rumored to have had a small rapid-fire cannon. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

What a bizarre firearm! I've never seen a picture of that before.<br /><br />From one of your links...<br /><br />"This is the Soyuz pistol, part of the survival equipment. We are supposed to use it to catch food and to signal our location if we land in some obscure part of the world. It has three barrels, two for shotgun shells and one for rifle bullets. The Soyuz machete can be used as the shoulder rest."<br /><br />That would classify this firearm as a 'drilling', a double barrelled shotgun with an additional rifle barrel. I believe german aircrews of WWII were sometimes issued with drillings for suvival weapons.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_gun <br /><br />

 

[docm]

There have been 2 barrel drillings sold here in the US for many years, mostly by Savage. <br /><br />I had the .308/12 gauge version as a kid. GREAT brush gun for deer hunting; a 500 grain sabot slug in the shotgun barrel and the .308 in a 180 grain silver tip. <br /><br />Kicked like a jackass on PCP though <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

"Shooting such a gun in space would probably send the shooter into some interesting gyrations, depending on how the gun was held, the bullet mass, and the mass of the shooter plus the gun." <br /><br />"Unless you were anchored to the ISS pretty firmly, you might wind up in your own orbit! And to keep from spinning out of control, you'd better hold it so the recoil was through your center of mass! In-space you'd be better off with a Gyrojet gun! On the Moon or Mars, the trajectories would be pretty flat! A really high-velocity cartridge might actually send the bullet into orbit (around the moon), which means you might have to take the shot and then duck IN FRONT of something so the bullet wouldn't hit you from behind!"<br /><br />I've contemplated ordinary firearms in a space environment and it's fun to consider the implications, some of which you have guessed at. <br /><br />It's funny how some people don't understand how firearms work in a space environment. In the cancelled TV show 'Firefly' one time they used a rifle to shoot at an enemy spacecraft so the crew put the rifle inside a spacesuit because it needed air to work! (Arrrggghhh!!)<br /><br />But in reality...firearms don't need external air to work! The greatest difficulty for firearms in space is the reliability of semi-automatic and full automatic weapons. Shedding excess heat in the vacuum of space would be difficult. And how many gun lubricants would function in the hard vacuum and extreme thermal environment of space? <br /><br />Trajectories would be extremely flat on the moon, though not quite as flat as you guessed. The high velocity .220 Swift rifle would only achieve 73% of the velocity needed to orbit the moon, so ducking to avoid your own shot coming at you from behind wouldn't be neccessary. But even an M-16 would send shots at 53% of orbital velocity so if you could aim accurately enough you could shoot at targets on the other side of the moon! On the moon even a lowly .22 lr would shoot flat

 

[docm]

How about a 10 gauge magnum load of OO buckshot or Flechette's? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

"Not only that but the Salyut-3 is rumored to have had a small rapid-fire cannon."<br /><br />The Salyut-3 was based on the Almaz military space station project.<br /><br />http://www.astronautix.com/craft/almaz.htm<br /><br />'...The Soyuz VI was to include a recoilless gun for self-defence developed by the well known Soviet designer A E Nudelman...By the middle of 1967 the mock-up and dynamic stand for testing of the Nudelman gun were completed...The Almaz also incorporated the Nudelman gun, the basic layout, and other equipment from Kozlov’s cancelled Soyuz VI...Brezhnev finally gave Chelomei the nod to launch the Almaz in order to beat the American Skylab...Almaz was finally successfully launched into space as Salyut 3 in June 1974...The Nudelman cannon inherited from the Soyuz VI was retained as an active defence system in the event of an attack by an Apollo spacecraft. The cannon was supplemented with space-to-space missiles."<br /><br />Recoiless cannon and space to space missiles? Wowl<br /><br />Nudelman also designed the common 23mm automatic cannon used on Soviet aircraft...<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudelman-Rikhter_NR-23

 

[JonClarke]

I don't think the space to space missiles actually ever flew.<br /><br />For the benefit of others, Soyuz VI was not the Soyuz 6 mission, but an unflown (apart from two unmanned launch failures early in the test program) military variant.<br /><br />http://www.astronautix.com/craft/soyuzvi.htm<br /><br />The Soviet concerns about possible combat applications of Apollo technology were not groundless. See the Covert Space denial LM variant considered in 1964. <br /><br />http://www.astronautix.com/craft/apolmcsd.htm<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[summoner]

Well for the moon there would be risk of sending a bullet into low orbit. Chances are it'd hit a mountain first. The minimum orbital velocity on the moon is roughly 1000 m/s or 3300 ft/sec. My main hunting rifle is a 7mm Remington Mag, I can easily load 140 gr bullets that surpass 3500 ft/sec. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <br /><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:271px;background-color:#FFF;border:1pxsolid#999"><tr><td colspan="2"><div style="height:35px"><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/htmlSticker1/language/www/US/MT/Three_Forks.gif" alt="" height="35" width="271" style="border:0px" /></div>

 

[docm]

.17 Remington varmint round; 4000 fps stock, easily reloaded to 4200 fps. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Even the newer recoilless rifles would be a problem. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Terrorism was not an issue in the CNN article for ISS. Rather, the concern was a suicidal astronaut (a gun might only help them) or a Nowak-type attack. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>