Can hemoglobin be made from elements other than Iron?

[willpittenger]

In Star Trek, Vulcans have green blood based on copper. Andorians have blue blood based on colbalt(?). Klingons have purple blood with an unkown compisition. In the Star Wars universe, the Yuuzan Vong also have blood with an unknown compisition -- this time black.<br /><br />The question is, can effective hemoglobin be made from these element (or elements that result in the mentioned colors)? Also, would it be more or less effective than ours? Effectiveness must take into account, not only the ability to hold oxygen and carbon dioxide molocules -- but their ability to resist carbon <i>mon</i>oxide. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Other elements in the oxygen - carrying molecule is possible. Cephlapods use haemocyanin, which has copper instead of iron.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Is it green? How about that efficency? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

As I recall from my squid dissections, it is almost colourless, but with a slight blue-green tinge. I believe it is not quite as efficient as haemoglobin.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[vogon13]

In the Star Trek episode 'Journey to Babel (IIRC), Spock (and Sarek's) blood was clearly <font color="red">red</font> as it coursed through McCoy's medical plumbing.<br /><br /><br />You may be basing your query on disinformation released by Star Fleet and/or Vulcan security apparatus.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I figure that cephlapods have no need to deal with carbon monoxide, but are they vurnable to that problem like we are?<br /><br />Also, since the molecule has a different name, I assume the structure is completely different. As such, technically, the correct answer to my original question would be "No". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I suspect when that episode was filmed, the green part had not yet been thought up. It was probably retconned in later. If Roddenberry were still around, he would probably want us to use 21st century tecnology to fix the blood color in that episode.<br /><br />BTW: You might want to read http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Vulcan. It says that Vulcan blood is "<i>copper or rust colored when deoxygenated in the veins and green when oxygenated in the arteries.</i>" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[ouroboroscobra]

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. The blood was clearly green in that episode, not red. It can be seen here:<br />http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=62&pos=283<br /><br />Green, not red. There have been other instances where we have seen green Vulcan and/or Romulan blood.

 

[JonClarke]

Don't know about compatibility of CO to haemocyanin. It's not something that cephlapods are likely to encounter in their natural environment (any more than we are), and so I don't think it has been researched. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I asked about it at Memory Alpha's talk page on Vulcans. They gave a link to a similar image, also claiming it showned green blood. However, to me, the tubes with blood are hard to see in those images. Too bad HD wasn't available in the 1960's. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[hracctsold]

If you ever read the book, "Spock's World," you could find the heritage or evolution of Vulcan. They were of a tree creation that started to move toward water they needed. As a result, the green part of his "blood" is a form of cloraphyll, pardon the spelling.<br /> At least that is part of that book I remember, and I have always wondered if that is true, wouldn't that make Spock being a vegetarian, a form of a cannibal, being that his past was of plant matter?

 

[CalliArcale]

No, that wouldn't make him a cannibal. After all, a lion eating a gazelle is not considered a cannibal. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Cannibalism is eating your own species, and there are presumably many kinds of plants on Vulcan. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Now if he eats tires.....<br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[Saiph]

you're right, the answer to your original question is technically "No" as making hemoglobin without iron is really a different compound all together. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Otherwise, I was going to bring up the example Jon did. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

My impression was that the fictional copper-based "hemoglobin" had the same basic structure as our version. Hence, if really possible, it would qualify. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

After some prompting, a Wikipedian confirmed it with a citation. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod#Circulatory_system. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemocyanin <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>