Confused about getting into buying a telescope :/

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Beanze

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Hi there. Before I begin i must inform you of that I'm very bad at calculating and generating ideas of what might actually be good for lets say, a telescope. All of the "Get this telescope, get that" tells me nothing about what's good and what's not.

I really trust anyone with a certain amount of knowledge here to give me the right answer on this one.

I'm looking into buying a telescope with a budget of ca 500$. And I have 2 questions for you on this one.

1. Which telescope would be preferred for the worst of astronomers of all time?
2. What do you expect me to see with this particular telescope? :eek:

second question includes another question which makes it 3 :p
when you tell me what i'll probably see, please leave some details.

"Yeah you'll see the andromeda galaxy and everything" does that leave me that I'll find a dot in the sky, or that it'll be a giant ass swirl in the scope? or perhaps, in between? :/

Sorry, I'm just really into scoping through the skies as It's become one of my hobbies throughout the past 5 years or so.
As I explained in another post, I'm 17 years old, I'm from sweden and I can't calculate for **** due to unfortunately being a school dropout w/o choice. :( Any misunderstandings, please leave a notice on that one and I'll interpret it :/

thanks in advance
 
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MeteorWayne

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First, there are no simple answers.
So, I'd suggest reading the topic just above called Looking to buy your first telescope? Read This. It's got a lot of useful info.
 
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SpaceTas

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I just looked at the Sky and Telescope website and they are re-releasing a review of starter telescopes. Their reviews are excellent so grab that. The scopes mentioned there should be available in Europe (seems there are very few local manufacturers; I am based in Paris). The final choice depends on you and your life; get a telescope you can will use ---- one that fits in your apartment/car ... being able to pick up the telescope and put it on the balcony really helps. Think about your own UFO grab scope confirm it was Jupiter ...

There is no real dividing line between things you can and can't see. You just see things better with a larger telescope. My first scope was a 60mm reasonable quality refractor on an OK alt-az mount (no tracking) with fairly poor eyepieces. This is the minimum! All the scopes reviewed in Sky and Telescope are equivalent or better. With that you can see lots of craters on the moon; the belts, Galilean moons and occasionally the red spot on Jupiter, the rings equatorial white belt on Saturn (also some of its moons), even the polar caps and Synis Major on Mars (during a good opposition). the brighter star clusters and nebulae (the ring nebula in Lyra is about the limit), brighter comets. By the time you find it's limits you'll have a good idea of your favorite type of objects and so have a good idea what to get for the next telescope ....

Don't worry about the math; getting the most out of observing is mostly a matter of familiarity with the telescope and the sky.

I got carried away with the post; so have a look at the Sky and Telescope reviews and then maybe check out the rest:
:)



Important terms with numbers
aperture: bigger is better. 60 mm is minimum for refractor, 90mm for reflector
magnification: don't worry about this anything greater than 200 it is just bad sales hype.
resolution: the numbers given are for deal conditions and set by aperture.
alt-az mount moves side-ways and up-down; doesn't track stars easily but you can get used to it; hard to show other people things; as objects move out of field of view.
equatorial mount easy tracking of stars; very handy. A simple motor helps. The extra step in setting up is pointing the axis roughly north. (That's after the one time setting the latitude). Tracking accuracy numbers etc are only important if you want to do photography.

You can get fancy go-to telescopes with databases of *** thousands of objects etc. Don't worry about the number of objects; half will be below the horizon and only the brightest say 200 hundred are worth chasing in a small scope. Another place for meaningless advertising hype. These telescopes can be a pain to set up properly (some don't have manual over-ride). Do you want to spend 10 min to 30 min messing about before seeing anything? The alignment procedure usually requires seeing 3 stars spread round the sky; easy in good weather with a view of the whole sky; maybe not possible from the balcony.

Big tips:
Find the local Astronomical society; and go to an observing session.
Get hold of a planisphere (its a round sky map with a movable window that shows what is visible; I've found them in book stores in the science section occasionally in astrology Arg!, or at planetariums
Latter a simple star atlas/guide (I like the ancient Norton's)
 
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Fallingstar1971

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OK.

I have been using the Orion XT8 Classic. Scope + shipping will leave you enough for an extra EP.

As for what you can see?

Well, what would you like to see?

I read and re-read that article about buying a scope for the first time. The XT8 was NOT my first scope, but it was my first "semi-large" scope and it was the first time I spent that much money on a scope.

If you want to take pictures of what you see, do not go with the XT8 or any other Dob. The best pictures require long exposure times that are not "impossible" with a dob, but it is very very very very very difficult. However, for looking and sharing the views with your friends, the Dob is the cheapest, most powerful solution for your buck. Setup time is under 5 minutes as well.

"Goto" scopes......I agree with what was said earlier, but Im going to add one minor detail.

(XT6 Intelliscope = 399.95 BEFORE SHIPPING (shipping on my Dob was over 100.00 (I think it was like 140)) (***just checked my invoice, it was 40.00 shipping, NOT 140.00. I thought that was rather high, but it was off the top of my head)

(XT8 Classic = 329.95) <-----------------(My choice, I spent an extra 120 bucks on the Celestron EP/filter kit. Comes with 5 EP, 10 filters and a nice 2x barlow)

(XT8 Intelliscope = 529.95) (the Intelliscope and the classic have pretty much the same everything as far as optics go)

Looking closely at those prices, which one is the better value?
And before you say "I saw the XT10 Classic online for under 500, Ill get that" consider the following:

How often are you going to use a scope that weighs over 50 pounds? Even my crapping 2 inch plastic reflector will give better views if you never take yours out of the closet.

For me, the hardest decision was either buying a 10 or an 8.
And yes, I can lift the 50+ lbs telescope, no problem.
But carrying 50+ lbs of telescope with very sensitive "you dont want to bang it into anything" optics? I dont trust myself THAT far. So I bought a little hand truck with bungie, combining that with two of the Styrofoam shipping molds for the tube a viola. I goes anywhere I want. Lay a folding chair down on the truck, Telescope on top of that, one free hand for EP case (Eye Pieces that is), and with that same hand my mini bag with my home-made battery/fan combo (Yes, at 8 inches or more you will want to be able to "defrost", or "dedew" the primary mirror) and this guy is ROLLING :)

You should learn the sky anyway. What if your out and your batteries die? How do you explain to a child that you know what galaxies look like but you cant even find the big dipper? That same child points to a brite red object, is it Mars? or is it Arcturus? Without knowing the sky, how can you be sure? (I own a 500 dollar telescope but don't know if that's a star or a planet?)

These come with a special version of starry night. This will allow you to print star charts.

I first got into astronomy when I was in the 5th grade. I flipped a book open and the very first page I saw had M31 as taken from the 200-inch Palomar. I asked my teach what it was, and he explained that it was a galaxy, much like our own, with millions of stars. Some of those stars could have a planets, and some of those planets could have life. From then on, I was hooked into at least looking up, which lead to more questions, which lead to a little 2 in reflector. Since, Ive owned a Celestron 4.5 inch reflector, but an improper cleaning lead to destroyed optics. So a few years later I got a decent tax return and purchased my XT8.

Bottom line:
Planets out to Saturn. AWESOME (havent spotted Uranus and Neptune yet, Im told that I can with my scope, but they will be more "starlike" than "planetlike" in my FOV.) These appear tiny with the stock EP, but under good conditions I can drop in my 4MM EP and see some details, at that magnification though its hauling butt through the sky and you will need to track it by slewing your scope by hand. (even the intelliscopes (Dob style that is) are NOT motorized. The controller has two little arrows and you move the scope by hand until they are gone. Motorized "Goto" is on a different, more expensive, type of mount)

Galaxies: AWESOME (To me). M31 is a faint fuzzy disk with a bright nucleus at FIRST GLANCE. But the more you look, the more you will see. It was horribly cloudy that night and I only had windows of a minute or two to observe between cloudbanks. (And Betelgeuse, for giggles I lined up during a clear spot, clouds rolled in, star is now invisible, but look through the scope, and there it was. This star is AMAZINGLY powerful to punch through the clouds like that after traveling all this way.)

Orion Nebula, AWESOME (not hubble mind you, but nothing beats seeing something with your own eyes)

Star clusters, AWESOME

There is more information available in these forums, I wont go into why cameras can take long term exposures in color when your eye registers the deep sky object as being mostly black and white. Thats a whole discussion in itself. Stars and planets show up in color, nebula and galaxies appear more black and white.

OK thats enough for me now, I have to get ready for work. Ill be home around 7-730is, and if weather permitting, be out for 2 or 3 hours. I post back what I see

Star

PS I feel that I should point out to you that 2-3 EP is better than one "Zoom" EP. I spent 70 dollars on a zoom and it is my ONLY regret :) I can dial the zoom to say 9MM and yes, the view is *Not bad*, but when I drop in an actual 9MM EP, it looks a lot better. For my 70 bucks I could have picked up a 9 and say a 4. The scope comes with a 25MM Plossl. The EP is where your "X" (Magnification power) comes in. Any scope can be made to go to ANY power. But without a large primary it will be very faint, and track out of you FOV in two seconds flat. Rule of thumb, the more you magnify, the dimmer it gets, and the faster it goes.
 
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Beanze

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First of all I'd like to tell you guys that I really really appreciate the effort of trying to help me out :) It's really great!

I have been looking around for the decent scopes you're all suggesting and I'm thinking about getting a simple "first time out" scope to begin with, then move along with what I learn. XT8 Intelliscope... well let's just say it's on my "to do" list and i'll carry it out once I've learned to know the skies as much as I'll probably need, to even consider advancing to the next level. :)

I really appreciate it, great stories and suggestions and ideas :)
one day, hopefully - I'll be the one explaining how all this works to the next generation of dummies I might produce. Haha! :lol:

(producing offspring) :twisted:
 
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duluthdave

Guest
Well, it looks like SpaceTas and Fallingstar have already given you a lot of good advice. But I love talking about
telescopes, so I figured I'd put in my two bits worth as well. Like they said, aperture is the main number you should be
looking at, and Dobsonians give you by far the most aperture for your money. However they aren't suitable for
astrophotography or terrestrial viewing (in case you have interesting neighbors.) But if you're not planning on either of
those, Dobs are generally your best bet.

A couple notes on magnification: the rule of thumb for the maximum useful magnification of a telescope is double it's
aperture in millimeters. (So 120x for a 60mm scope, about 400x for an 8" scope.) But even on a clear night, sky conditions (seeing) will limit how much magnification you can actually use. On a bad night, you'll start running into trouble around 100x. On a very good night you can go to 300x or even a little more, but nights that good are pretty rare (at least around here.) The good news is that for many deep space objects you won't want that much magnification anyway. They're hard to see because they're dim, not because they're small. So the ability to gather light (again, aperture) is the key. When you start buying more eyepieces than what your scope comes with, I'd suggest getting a large one for lower magnification. With quite a few star clusters, that's the only way you'll be able to see the whole thing at once.

The point Fallingstar made about moving larger scopes is worth repeating. Bigger won't let you see more if it's collecting dust in the closet. Get one you can move easily, you'll use it a lot more often. I've got two telescopes, my old 6" Dob and a 10" reflector on an equatorial mount. Guess which one I use more often? Yep, the 6" one. The big one is great for astrophotography (which is why I got it in the first place), but it's also bulky to move and takes some setup time. For a normal night of stargazing I like the one I can just pick up and carry outside with no real setup time at all.

Now on to what you'll see: the moon and planets are a great place for beginners. With those, you will want as much
magnification as conditions allow. They'll let you see some color and plenty of details in the planets themselves. You can also see the large moons of Jupiter and Saturn as well as Saturn's famous rings. I'd suggest trying some filters to help make those details easier to see (#11 and #80a filters could be a good place to start.) Planets are also great for beginners because they're bright and easy to find. You've probably already noticed them in the night sky, even if you didn't know that's what they where. As you get to know the night sky better, planets will also stand out because over time they move relative to the background stars, leaving them looking a little out of place.

There are plenty of great deep space objects you'll be able to see too. My personal favorites are star clusters, both open and globular, as they're hard to beat in simple beauty. Besides the galaxies and nebulas, binary/multiple stars can also be fun targets. Even a smaller telescope will let you see at least a few of each of these things. I hope some of this was helpful. Astronomy is a great hobby, so have fun! :)
 
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Beanze

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why thank you :)

I really appreciate all the help I can get! One thing really beats me up... okay first of all... I'm not insulting your intelligence or anything what so ever so please don't feel offended by this, how the hell can you pain yourself through writing all of this as if it came out of your ass? Not literally, it's just that I couldn't find any other way of expressing what I've just seen :D It's like I've got my own personal stored library here with all you guys around - I really love that :)

Again, thanks a million. I've already gotten started with locating the stars and planets. Finding out what's what etc. :)
I'm purchasing the scope by the end of the week following your ideas and suggestions so a huge huge thanks to you guys. :p

((( The ass part, I only meant your words seem to be in a constant flow with no interruptions at all :( I envy you. )))
 
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MeteorWayne

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"I really appreciate all the help I can get! One thing really beats me up... okay first of all... I'm not insulting your intelligence or anything what so ever so please don't feel offended by this, how the hell can you pain yourself through writing all of this as if it came out of your {PF bypass}?"

Nice way to appreciate a thoughtful response. You are now on the troll list...

I suspect your time here will be short.
 
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Beanze

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MeteorWayne":3gldgy17 said:
"I really appreciate all the help I can get! One thing really beats me up... okay first of all... I'm not insulting your intelligence or anything what so ever so please don't feel offended by this, how the hell can you pain yourself through writing all of this as if it came out of your {PF bypass}?"

Nice way to appreciate a thoughtful response. You are now on the troll list...

I suspect your time here will be short.


and I made sure it wasn't supposed to go out that way Wayne. -.- I didn't mean it that way, which I explained :/
how else can I put it? hm.. some sort of nice sense of flowing ideas? It's a positive not the contrary .. words, lots of words which makes reading enjoyable. I can't put it in another way and if anyone was offended by that I'm sorry. :?
 
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MeteorWayne

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You didn't make it sure enough. The other mods will judge your comments....
 
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Beanze

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MeteorWayne":2ur4iiab said:
You didn't make it sure enough. The other mods will judge your comments....

Ahhr.. I'm serious, it wasn't meant to come out that way, Wayne. I really do appreciate the help I'm getting and I find them all very generous by spending their time like that. That's why I'm here in the first place, because It ain't stacked with morons. You probably think of me as one so who am I to say anything :|
 
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Beanze

Guest
MeteorWayne":20xulplq said:
One's words speak to their intentions....


I admit that it was immensely rude of me to say such a thing, I really didn't mean it that way... that should explain my attempts to explain what I said in the exact same post. I would probably too, see myself as a jerk if I were in your shoes but seriously.. well it's in your hands now I'll check back in a while to see what's been done about it. Again, my apologies. It really just didn't come out as intended.. :|
 
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Fallingstar1971

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Well........

I did say I was into Astronomy since the 5th grade.

I will be 40 in August

Thats a lot of books. So many things do come naturally from all that reading. If you get into the hobby, in a matter of weeks things will be coming naturally to you as well.

Short answer: Biggest aperture you can CARRY and afford.

But when you get into the "What will you be looking for", now we look at the different sizes and uses.

Telescope discussions are NEVER "short". There is just SO much to see, and such a very short lifetime to see it :)

So the more you know, the more time you spend viewing what your interested in, and less time looking for it.

The more you know, the less money is spent on useless gadgets and the more money is spent on the quality of optics, giving you the best views. Theres like a 200 dollar difference between XT8 and iXT8. 200 dollars for a few good EP. (or a kit) But everything has a price. Even your savings. The XT is a classic, requiring you to know where your objective is, witch means that I hope you can read a map. (star maps and street maps are similar, but they use different terms for Lat-Long (RA and DEC)) But for the Ms and the NGCs you can get away with basic skills as long as you can navigate the scope and "Star Hop"

If I could afford it, I would get a astro-photography. But the camera, rig, and mount are just too expensive. You go big, and you need a STRONG mount otherwise the scope shakes. Perhaps next year Ill spring for an EQ mount with motorized tracking. But for now, Im "Dobbin" it all the way :) I did manage some afocal shots of the moon that came out "okish" I guess.

KK.....time for coffee

Oh and Wayne...............................CLOUDS SUCK!!!!!!!!! I Had less than an hour of clear skies last night. so I didnt bother setting up.....I hope tonight looks good, I hear more snow may be coming Monday or Tuesday. I really really really want to see Vesta with my own eyes.....LOL


Star
 
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duluthdave

Guest
Beanze":1tznzgk4 said:
I'm purchasing the scope by the end of the week following your ideas and suggestions so a huge huge thanks to you guys. :p

You're very welcome. If you need any more astronomy advice or suggestions, you know where to find them. ;)

Fallingstar1971":1tznzgk4 said:
Perhaps next year Ill spring for an EQ mount with motorized tracking. But for now, Im "Dobbin" it all the way I did manage some afocal shots of the moon that came out "okish" I guess.

Have you tried the planets? If not, you may want to. Before I got my equatorial mounted scope, I was able to take some pretty good pictures of Mars and Jupiter through my Dob. I could image the phases of Venus as well.
 
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Fallingstar1971

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Im using an Olympus with a 3x optical zoom, its not the best........

I need a decent camera with interchangeable lenses in order to use a "T" type adapter. I was just holding the camera to the EP.

So im looking at a couple hundred bucks just for a descent cam. No laptop and observations are away from home so Web cam and CCD are currently out I think.

A descent EQ mount with tracking is going to cost me as well, although I did find a site that makes a "platform" that simulates an EQ mount.

So in the end, I may just buy a second scope with EQ mount and tracking, although I really would like to see some long term exposures taken with my current OTA.

Bottom line, I know quite a bit but I still have sooooooooooooooooooooo much to learn, and Im just getting started. Planets? tried Mars, but I learned a little something about frame stacking since then. (see, learning all the time) So when I get some clear skies Im anxious to try again!

Thanks for the tips, any others are appreciated, and I am always willing to pass on what I have learned :)

Star
 
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