Did we use Titan II as satellite launchers?

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willpittenger

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On the History Channel show Mega Movers, I saw how they were removing Titan IIs from silos back in the 1980s. Were those missles used to launch satellites or scrapped? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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Boris_Badenov

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Titan II <br />The Titan II space-launch vehicles were purpose-built as space launchers or are decommissioned ICBMs that have been refurbished and equipped with hardware required for use as space launch vehicles. All twelve Gemini capsules were launched by Titan II launchers. The Titan 23B was a Titan II with an Agena third stage that was used to launch reconnaissance satellites.<br /><br />The Martin Marietta Astronautics Group was awarded a contract in January 1986 to refurbish, integrate, and launch fourteen Titan II ICBMs for government space launch requirements. These were designated Titan 23G. The Air Force successfully launched the first Titan 23G space launch vehicle from Vandenberg AFB September 5, 1988. NASA’s Clementine spacecraft, which was launched aboard a Titan 23G in January 1994, discovered water on the moon in November 1996.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>
 
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drwayne

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I also know firsthand of a NOAA satellite shot as well. (NOAA-M)<br /><br />There were 11 or 12 launches. I think there was one of the refurbished birds that they did not use.<br /><br />I just got up and am speaking from memory, so my numbers might be off by 1 or 2...<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
 
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3488

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Thanks Boris1961 & drwayne.<br /><br />Not much had been heard of the Titan II other than their military role.<br /><br />Clementine was a great example. IIRC was the Titan 23G for Clementine's launch, <br />built back in the 1960s? With the refurbishment, it was able to launch Clementine, to the<br />Moon.<br /><br />Talk about turning swords into ploughshares!!!! <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>
 
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willpittenger

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I knew about the Gemini missions, but since the Titans were so new and I doubt none had been retired yet, I figured those Titans were purpose built -- especially with NASA man-rating requirements. It is too bad that Von Braun did not have anything capable of putting Mercury or Gemini into orbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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drwayne

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Man rating the Titan was quite hard, and it was a job by the way that the Air Force did not really want to do.<br /><br />The Titan had some serious issues early in its history with POGO.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
 
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jimfromnsf

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"The Titan 23B was a Titan II with an Agena third stage that was used to launch reconnaissance satellites."<br /><br />Titan 23B is a purpose built Titan IIIB. Not a Titan II
 
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jimfromnsf

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"It is too bad that Von Braun did not have anything capable of putting Mercury or Gemini into orbit."<br /><br />Why?
 
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willpittenger

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>It is too bad that Von Braun did not have anything capable of putting Mercury or Gemini into orbit.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Why?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><li>Von Braun could have used the opportunity to test technology that went into the Saturn program.<li>Avoiding the ICBMs might have reduced the fighting between NASA and the Air Force. I remember something about how the Air Force people (other than astronauts) felt the Atlas did not require any changes for man-rating.<li>Skipping the Titan's hypergolic fuels would have been safer.</li></li></li> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

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"Von Braun could have used the opportunity to test technology that went into the Saturn program. "<br /><br />Exactly how much control do you think that von Braun had?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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willpittenger

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Boris_Badenov

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<font color="yellow"> Titan 23B is a purpose built Titan IIIB. Not a Titan II </font><br /><br />Take it up with Wiki. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>
 
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willpittenger

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Talk about turning swords into ploughshares!!!! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>I hear that some people like missile silos as homes. The Mega Movers episode I mentioned said that each silo was destroyed (probably due to treaty requirements), but the government could have made some money selling them off. (Free earthquake and nuclear attack shelter built in.) Or I suppose they could them as emergency shelters for tornadoes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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jimfromnsf

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Wikipedia is not a source to quote, especially space info.<br /><br />I could go in there and change it to an Atlas II
 
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Boris_Badenov

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<font color="yellow"> I could go in there and change it to an Atlas II </font><br /><br />Then why don't you? <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>
 
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jimfromnsf

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"1 Avoiding the ICBMs might have reduced the fighting between NASA and the Air Force. <br />2. I remember something about how the Air Force people (other than astronauts) felt the Atlas did not require any changes for man-rating.<br />3Skipping the Titan's hypergolic fuels would have been safer."<br /><br />1. This was not the basis of the fighting. It actually made them work together and helped both programs<br />2. It wasn't changed. Just an abort system was added<br />3. Wrong. They made it safer wrt aborts and also it enabled the rendezvous missions launch on time
 
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Boris_Badenov

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Maybe you should hold off.<br /><br /> Space Launch Report: Titan 23G Data Sheet <br />Titan 23G space launch vehicles were refurbished decommissioned Titan 2 intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). The two-stage liquid fueled storable propellant launchers were able to lift about 1.9 metric tons (tonnes) into polar low-Earth orbit from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. <br /><br /><br /><br /> January 22 - Last Titan 2 Launch Attempt Set <br />A final attempt to launch a Lockheed Martin Titan 23G refurbished ICBM to loft U.S. Air Force 's DMSP-5D3-F16 (Defense Meteorological Satellite Program) spacecraft to orbit is scheduled on January 23. The launch has already been postponed four times since January 18 and in case of another launch mishap, the whole Titan 2 vehicle would be replaced, causing at least a 60-day postponement. On January 21, the launch was aborted twice, first 19 seconds before ignition due to a faulty valve sensor, then 10 minutes later as the automatic sequencer detected the end of the launch window apparently fractions of second before the ignition of the first stage's Aerojet LR87-AJ-11 engine. Later traces of Aerozine 50 propellant were detected in the atmosphere on the pad forcing the launch crew to check for a possible leak. <br /><br /><br /><br /> Titan II Timeline <br />Sep 5 - Fourteen retired Titan 2 ICBM's were refurbished and modified for use as launch vehicles. The refurbished vehicles were called Titan 2 (23)G. This was the first launch in the series. It carried the classified payload Bernie 1 - ELINT satellite into orbit from Vandenberg AFB. Titan II SLV 23G-1 Vandenberg. LC: SLC4W.<br /><br /><br /> Jonathan's Space ReportNo. 401 199 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>
 
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willpittenger

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>3. Skipping the Titan's hypergolic fuels would have been safer."<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Wrong. They made it safer wrt aborts and also it enabled the rendezvous missions launch on time<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />So ejecting from a Gemini capsule during a pad explosion would not put the crew into a cloud of poisonous vapors? Could you explain that? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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jimfromnsf

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"So ejecting from a Gemini capsule during a pad explosion would not put the crew into a cloud of poisonous vapors? Could you explain that?"<br /><br />easily. The ejection seats were chosen because hypergols are less explosive and the range of the seat was sufficent to clear the clouds. <br />You are debating as if Titan didn't use hypergols. NASA found that it was safe and better for the crew
 
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jimfromnsf

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Any Titan designation with a "B" was a Titan IIIB and not a Titan II, new or refurbed.
 
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qso1

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willpittenger:<br />Von Braun could have used the opportunity to test technology that went into the Saturn program.<br /><br />Me:<br />The way the timeline played out, had NASA not had Titans already available courtesy DOD, the moon landing would not have occured as early as it did. Von Braun actually did have an opportunity to test Saturn-V technology because the Saturn series was available as early as 1961 with the October 1961 first launch of a Saturn 1. But there again, the timeline comes into play. Certainly the Saturn 1 could have lofted Mercury and Gemini capsules to low orbit but Saturn 1 was more than what was needed for Mercury and Gemini and man rated flight ready Apollo capsules were not ready in 1961. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
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qso1

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Just some data:<br /><br />Saturn 1 was flown 10 times (IIRC) between 27 Oct 61 to 30 Jul 65. This LV could lift approx. 23,000 lb to LEO.<br /><br />Saturn 1B was flown 10 times (IIRC) between 26 Feb 66 and 15 Jul 75 (5 flights were manned) and this LV could lift around 40,000 lbs to LEO<br /><br />The Titan II could lift 6 to 7,000 lbs to LEO.<br /><br />In effect, Von Braun was getting data on Apollo all along. In fact, it appears to me as though we just about could have done the Gemini type missions using Saturn 1Bs and 3 man flight crews starting probably no earlier than mid 1966. If the Saturn 1 had been manrated, 3 man flights could have occurred as early as the actual SA-3 flight (Assumes SA-1 and 2 being manrating flights) on 16 November 62 but again, Apollo CSM was not ready. Gemini flights started in early 1965 so having Titan II around was definetely a good thing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
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qso1

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excellent point.<br /><br />Cryogenic propellant rockets are more difficult to deal with in the event of delays. The Titans whole deal was it was developed for reliable and quick launch times. Atlas as a first generation ICBM was dogged by the need to be fueled before launch. A process that took longer to do than it takes an enemy ICBM to get here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
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