Dirigibles on Mars ?

[superluminal]

Asking the engineers.<br />Lets say it's already the future.<br /><br />Mars inhabitants need a safe economical way to fly above ground from city to city in bulk.<br /><br /> Since a 747 wouldn't fly in the one, one hundredth thin atmosphere on mars, I am wondering if it is possible to build a huge Dirigible Airship, that would transport bulk passengers and if so..., <br />What gas could you possibly fill it with that would create enough lift to overcome .38 g in such an already thin atmosphere of Mars???. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><br /><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Columbia and Challenger </font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Starships of Heroes</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[adzel_3000]

It would be possible to do this on Mars. <br /><br />There was an article about it at one of the recent "Case for Mars" colloquiams.<br /><br />Here is the article author and publication info...<br /><br />Dirigible Airships for Martian Surface Exploration (AAS 84-176), W. Mitchell Clapp <br /><br />Also, (Alan...sp??) Steele featured a manned Martian dirigible in his book "Labyrinth of Night," ....a good read (but all in fun!) <br /><br />There is also some info about Martian "aviation" at this site (hope you have Adobe Reader):<br /><br />http://www.lunar-reclamation.org/mmm_samples/mmm153_Mar2002.pdf

 

[superluminal]

I do<br /><br />Thanks for the nice read. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><br /><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Columbia and Challenger </font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Starships of Heroes</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[superluminal]

Thanks Eddie <br />That's what I thought.<br /><br />That brings up the point I am trying to understand.<br /><br />Just exactly how much lifting capacity would an airship have compared with a ship the size of an Earth dirigible?<br />Or in short<br /><br />A hydrogen or Helium dirigible on Earth would lift so many kilograms. (Kilogram = 2,2 pounds I think)<br /><br />How would that equate to the lifting capacity of the same sized ship on mars with one, one hundred atmosphere and .38 gravity.<br /><br />Lets say we had a small dirigible that would lift 100 kilograms on Earth, How much would that exact same dirigible lift in the thin atmosphere of Mars in .38g and thin atmosphere?<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><br /><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Columbia and Challenger </font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Starships of Heroes</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[adzel_3000]

There's a complete discussion at New mars on this topic...<br /><br />http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3509<br /><br />Hope this provides some useful information for you...<br /><br />

 

[superluminal]

Thank You <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><br /><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Columbia and Challenger </font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Starships of Heroes</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[thalion]

My gas of choice for filling a dirigible on Mars would be oxygen, as it would stay in the balloon longer; hydrogen (and helium, for that matter) are notoriously leaky. I also think a balloon filled with hot CO2 would also be effective, given how cold the atmosphere is; it could perhaps be heated by a wire coil in the envelope of the dirigible.

 

[superluminal]

Would an oxygen filled dirigible produce lift on the very thin carbon dioxide pressure on mars?<br /><br />Isn't it true, that mars is red, because the oxygen that once existed in the thin atmosphere, long ago fell into the soil and rocks causing the rusty red color of Mars? <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><br /><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Columbia and Challenger </font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="3" color="#3366ff">Starships of Heroes</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I think that should be 100th of an atmosphere <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />You would want an altitude margin in operate over much of Mars, so it would have to be designed for 1/200 atm (5 mB). Terrestrial high altitude balloons operate at these pressures, on Mars you have the advantage of the lower gravity, higher molecular atmosphere, and being able to use hydrogen.<br /><br />Other than the low pressure, the big drawbacks are the need to operate in high winds (lots of power) and to carry your on oxidiser. There are a few fuels (like silane - SiH4) that burn is CO2, but I don't know practical these are.<br /><br />Clapp compared a balloon, heaviler than air craft, and an airship which derived 10-14 of its lift from bouyancy and the rest from aerodynamics. A pure balloon on Mars would need 67000 m3 to lift 1000 kg, equivalent to a 100 kg payload. Obviously the hybrid would be more efficient. <br /><br />Such an airship with a 100 kg payload and a range of ~200 km (i.e. an aerobot or unmanned probe) would by 38 m long, 20 m wide, and 10 m high. It could cruise at up to 200 kph. The large "wing area" (740 m2) means that solar cells are feasible, and at high latitudes, could give the craft almost unlimited range.<br /><br />Manned airships would be colossal, needing payloads of 1 tonne ands thus 10 times the volume.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>