Drilling on Mars

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willpittenger

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How readily could we put on Mars a drill capable of getting cores from 50 feet down? Here on Earth, we could go much deeper (miles), but such a drill would be huge. Something smaller, though, might still provide useful data. I figure a camera would scan all the way around the core as it came out and send the images back to Earth.<br /><br />Once it completed one core, if we could then move the drill a few kilometers and get another core, that would be even better. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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3488

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Perhaps a mast of differing imagers, covering several wavelengths & magnifications.<br /><br />As the core came out, each imager would observe the same material, but at differing <br />magnifications & spectral windows, so we get to see exactly what came out.<br /><br />The lander craft I take it would be a rover, so that would need to be equiped IMO with<br />NAVCAM & PANCAM as the current MERs.<br /><br />Also we could do the same for the Moon & Mercury, with RGT variants for 1 Ceres, & some of the <br />moons of the outer planets perhaps.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>
 
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dragon04

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The biggest problem is not having people "on site" to rectify the smallest problem a drilling rig might encounter.<br /><br />Assuming that we could both get a drilling rig TO Mars, and expect it to autonomously set itself up, we'd have to expect a perfect operation without physical intervention.<br /><br />Unless and until we can exhibit such a reliable setup here on Earth, it's Pie In The Sky to me.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>
 
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franontanaya

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Maybe send it in a trolley so MSL can pull it around. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />Well, I don't know, but maybe when we really have a lot of activity up there, at a specially interesting location, it could be a stout and durable dummy drill which (among other reusable instruments) could be picked and driven/powered by several rovers, or even human operators. The rover would bring many of the science instruments, comm relays, and movement engineering, and it would be free to detach and explore to do some probing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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billslugg

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Drilling remotely is not particularly difficult as long as you do not have to pull the drill string and add to its length. Then it becomes very touchy. Horizontal boring machines are made with automatic carousels holding additional lengths of drill pipe. An automatic system can add them as the string is pushed on out, and subtract them as the string is pulled in. It is finicky though, and human attention is a must. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p> </div>
 
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j05h

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There is a big difference between an "arm's length" drill and a multi-segment down-hole hammer. Something like the MER "RAT" tool is relatively simple compared to adding pipe segments to an extensive drilling operation. Even advanced sonic drills only increase the efficiency of something short-range. <br /><br />I've looked into automated drilling/tunneling for zero-G and Mars, and the situation is not pretty. Even the most automated mining hardware requires extensive human intervention, especially maintenance. There are no "general purpose" robots yet. Someone has to service the gear. <br /><br />What is the drilling for? Ice mining could be done as more of a scraping or dozing operation. Scientific core samples could feasibly be taken to perhaps 1-3 meters robotically but anything deeper would require people onsite. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>
 
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earth_bound_misfit

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It might be easier making a crater with an impactor of known composition then dropping/driving a probe/rover in. Though I could be completely wrong <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------- </p><p>Wanna see this site looking like the old SDC uplink?</p><p>Go here to see how: <strong>SDC Eye saver </strong>  </p> </div>
 
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bdewoody

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There is a segment of the Science Channel's series "Mars Rising" in which they are working on a drill that will penetrate about 2 meters. The problem is the amount of power available which isn't much. The drill they have built won't go more than a couple of inches an hour. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>
 
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richalex

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Maybe they could fire rockets into the ground? Scientists used to do that (and maybe still do) back in the '60s here on Earth to study ground composition. IIRC, the rockets could penetrate as much as 2 km into the ground. Maybe we could send several small, hardened rockets with sensors that could drill into Mars at a half-dozen locations?
 
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bdewoody

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You won't get a core sample that way though <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>
 
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billslugg

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<font color="yellow">...could penetrate as much as 2 km into the ground.</font>Two meters would be about right, 2 kilometers is too far. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p> </div>
 
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henryhallam

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Drilling is one thing but the equipment to autonomously analyse a core sample and get useful data from it would also be heavy and complicated.
 
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j05h

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<i>> Drilling is one thing but the equipment to autonomously analyse a core sample and get useful data from it would also be heavy and complicated.</i><br /><br />That really has to wait for humans and dedicated labs on Mars. The drill/core concepts for autonomous sample return usually involve very small samples (10g-10kg perhaps). For hands-on research, people could analyze both dedicated cores taken carefully and the tailings of mining hardware like tunnel boring machines. Each would provide complementary answers to Mars geology. <br /><br />Another option that still requires crew is to take comprehensive cores, keep them frozen/pressurized and deliver them to Earth for analysis. There are huge planetary-protection issues with that approach but it provides the best possible lab equipment and researchers for the task. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>
 
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willpittenger

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Actually, I was thinking the instruments to analyze the core would be just what is on the end of the MER arm. A camera and a spectrograph would tell a lot. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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h2ouniverse

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A drill for a 2m-deep core-sampling is being built for ExoMars. This is a multi-segment stuff.<br />http://www.esa.int/esaMI/Aurora/SEM1NVZKQAD_0.html<br />15m would mean a bulkier element. To justify the additional mission cost, you need then to justify that you would find things qualitatively far more interesting at -15m than at -2m.<br />
 
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deapfreeze

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The only problem I can see with drilling on Mars without Human supervision is: What if the drill jams or breaks? Do we leave the drill dead and take the financial hit? or do we make a robot that can fix it? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#0000ff"><em>William ( deapfreeze ) Hooper</em></font></p><p><font size="1">http://deapfreeze-amateur-astronomy.tk/</font></p><p> </p> </div>
 
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franontanaya

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Well, actually, any unmanned spacecraft that we send out there can jam or break anytime. So "can" shouldn't be so much of a stopper than "probably will". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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no_way

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The only problem I can see with drilling on Mars without Human supervision is: What if the drill jams or breaks?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />The problem i see with humans drilling on mars is, what if something, anything breaks ? do we take the loss or attempt to fix it ?<br /><br />Hey, you make your best to design the stuff to perform its function, build in adequate safety margins and redundancies as best as you can, given other constraints like budget and available mass ( also constrained by budget, ultimately ). If it breaks, it breaks. Lots of probes have failed to perform their function.<br />The site is six months away, its not like you can send replacement parts or fixing tools next day, regardless of whether you have humans or robots on site. Doing it unmanned has at least the advantage of not risking any lives. <br />This problem is no different from anything else done on these one-way one-off missions. You make your best effort and cross fingers.
 
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3488

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Yes, the drill on 'Mars Rising' was a low power unit, but was relatively simple.<br /><br />At two inches per hour, it is not fast, but it is consistant.<br /><br />I cannot see why in some respects a similar uncrewed drill be sent by way of a rover (as mentioned<br />earlier), but with a telescopic 'bit'. as the hole deepened, it would self lengthen &<br />can draw up cores.<br /><br />If such a thing was built well, well engineered & well tested (as in the case of the MERs & Pheonix),<br />I fail to see why it would not work. <br /><br />A crew as depicted in 'Mars Rising' would be advisable as technicians would be on hand<br />should something go wrong, but I don't see why it should if properly tested, built with quality<br />materials & constant contact can be maintained.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>
 
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radarredux

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> <i><font color="yellow">The only problem I can see with drilling on Mars without Human supervision is: What if the drill jams or breaks? Do we leave the drill dead and take the financial hit? or do we make a robot that can fix it?</font>/i><br /><br />One approach is to make a lot of inexpensive drills that are relatively disposable. Another approach is to make something expensive that is designed to be maintained.<br /><br />For robotic missions, I prefer the former. I wish NASA would fund a the development of a very basic, very simple low-cost lander/rover platform that would be used over many missions. Then NASA could start firing large numbers of these every two years to high-risk but scientifically very interesting landing sites without the fear of needing to make a good landing.<br /><br />Right now NASA spends an awful lot of money building brand new, very expensive landers/rovers for every new mission.<br /><br />For a drilling mission, maybe it could just be a long hollow spike at the bottom of a simple and small lander that would hit the surface Mars first, and the momentum of the landing would drive the spike into the ground (maybe a few inches, maybe a few feet). Then the lander would pull the material up, perform fairly simple scientific analysis on it. Report the results to an overhead spacecraft via a low-cost antenna. Mission over.</i>
 
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sponge

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I think a mini blast hole rig would be suitable with a 3 m rod string, maybe 500kg in weight with a maybe a bq diameter core barrel and bit, also an acoustic televiewer down the hole might be good also.<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><u>SPONGE</u></em></p> </div>
 
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no_way

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I wish NASA would fund a the development of a very basic, very simple low-cost lander/rover platform<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Talk to Google instead, perhaps. They are doing exactly that for moon with GLXP.
 
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