Enceladus, the Europa of Saturn

chew_on_this · Feb 15, 2005

From Carolyn Porco:Everyone, Cassini's fourth flyby (and its third very close encounter) with Titan is underway. This event will be followed in two days by a very close flyby of the bright moon Enceladus, a body that could be the `Europa of the Saturn System', with the potential of a sub-surface ocean. Any thoughts on the potential for this ocean (tidal heating, etc.)?

CalliArcale · Feb 15, 2005

Ooh, I didn't know Enceladus was next on the list! Awesome! Enceladus is the shiniest object in the solar system, with an albedo close to 1 -- pure white. It would be very interesting to see if it's got an ocean, although I doubt it'll be as significant as Europa's ocean. Enceladus does have grooves similar to those seen on Europa, but it also has a lot more craters, so its surface is older. In some respects, it looks more like Ganymede, except that it is much smaller (it's smaller than Europa as well) and seems to have very little rock. What's really interesting is that there are grooves that cut *across* cratered terrain, wiping craters out. So there has been reshaping since the impacts. And the impacts aren't all that old either. Compare the light, crisp craters on Enceladus with the many deformed and decayed craters on Iapetus. So this should be very interesting. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

yurkin · Feb 15, 2005

Considering what we’ve found on Iapetus and Titan I am very reluctant to make a prediction of any sort. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

vogon13 · Feb 16, 2005

Really excited about this. Should be very interesting. Wonder if any pix are planned looking back at Enceladus towards sun? (look for backscattering from venting) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

peteb · Feb 16, 2005

According to this article, those kinds of images are planned: http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/cassini_titan03_plan_0211.html

vogon13 · Feb 16, 2005

thanx!<img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

chew_on_this · Feb 16, 2005

Considering the quality of pics we've gotten from Europa, the res we get on Enceladus should be stunning. Does anyone know what the tidal resonances are for Enceladus with Saturn, the other moons, and possible tidal heating?

vogon13 · Feb 16, 2005

I vote for Enceladosian!font color=orange>!font color=yellow>!font color=green>!font color=blue>!font color=black>! it sounds more alien <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

chew_on_this · Feb 17, 2005

raw pics now in! http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/raw-images-list.cfm?StartRow=113&cacheQ=1&browseLatest=0&storedQ=906213 I see some "rafting" but not nearly as much as Europa.

tom_hobbes · Feb 17, 2005

Very Beautiful. From a little way out it looks like the skin on custard after having been pushed around a bit. Does anybody know how those raised vein-like ridges are caused? In these images: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/casJPGFullS08/N00028194.jpg http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/casJPGFullS08/N00028178.jpg (as well as some of the others) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

jmilsom · Feb 17, 2005

Yes. More fantastic images. The Saturnian system is so incredibly beautiful. And with each new glimpse, new mysteries are revealed begging to be answered. I'm still astounded by the close-ups of Iapetus. Look forward to reading people's ideas and analyses of what we are seeing and comparing it to Europa. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

vogon13 · Feb 18, 2005

Lookit those vein things! Lava tubes? (cryo-lava??) Probably not, can't find it now, but one of the 'veins' looked like it ran uphill, any one can find that pix please post, or if it's already here let me know so I can gape at it some more. 'Veins' probably analogous to pressure ridges in earth polar ice packs. But I would sure like to hear what others think. Drat, where is that picture! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

peteb · Feb 19, 2005

Steve - I don't know what image you are referring to. Obviously not the images that Tom_Hobbes linked to 2 days ago. Currently as I am posting, this spectacular view of Rhea and the rings is on p. 15 (assuming you meant the Raw Images) http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/raw-images-details.cfm?feiImageID=32817 I think that we probably will be able to discern something about Enceladus.

The surface looks like some combination of Ganymede, Europa, and perhaps Miranda: http://ciclops.lpl.arizona.edu/view.php?id=860 The latest puzzle from VIMS is that the surface appears to be almost pure water ice. It was expected that ammonia would be present.

tom_hobbes · Feb 19, 2005

Six post's above you Steve. Real close. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

vogon13 · Feb 19, 2005

I absolutely cannot find picture of vein running 'uphill' so I'm backing off of my claims above. Are there any other Enceladus pix from Cassini not on the JPL web site? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

centsworth_II · Feb 20, 2005

"Enceladus... and Europa.... How anyone could compare the one to the other, and conclude they are similar is an amazing case of mistaken perception." -- stevehw33 The first post specifies that they could be similar in both having "...the potential of a sub-surface ocean". No other similarities are drawn. Your list is interesting but useless as an attack on this premise. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

jmilsom · Feb 21, 2005

Thanks for that clarification stevehw33. I had heard talk of comparisons between the two, but did not realise just how different they were. What are the leading theories for Enceladus? Could a body that small (500km ice ball) conceivably have subsurface liquid? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Feb 21, 2005

"Could a body that small (500km ice ball) conceivably have subsurface liquid?" I imagine that it is the same linear, criss-crossing fractures and ridges seen on both Europa and Enceladus that leads to the theory of an ocean covered by a thick ice layer. Europa is on top, Enceladus beneath: <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

chew_on_this · Feb 21, 2005

Just to clear up a few misperceptions, the link I originally posted were the close views but as time went by those shots were pushed back. So, I guess someone with a little imagination could have browsed back a few pages (they're the little numbers on the bottom) and found them but that may be to much to ask. As far as comparisons to Europa go, the title of the thread was from Carolyn Porco from Ciclops, maybe you've heard of her? She's a real life scientist. You did do a nice job of copying everything out of your encyclopedia though, I'll grant you that much. Very creative.

chew_on_this · Feb 21, 2005

The features on Europa are refered to as "rafting". Imagine a bowl of ice cubes jostling around and then freezing. They can tell the jostling occured by the linear features in the seperate cubes being out of alignment. So at some point an event caused the interior to heat up enough to fracture the crust and cause the rafting features.

chew_on_this · Feb 21, 2005

Looking at some of the pics on CICLOPS, the features seen in the mosaic look strikingly like features seen on Ganymede. Unusual for an icy moon to resemble a more rocky moon. All I can say is...Groovy. http://ciclops.lpl.arizona.edu/view_event.php?id=11

jmilsom · Mar 9, 2005

Hey I'm bumping this one back up as, if I read my calendar correctly, the next flyby of Enceladus is scheduled for today (it is Mar 9 at my location). This is supposed to be the closest one in the schedule, is in not? Really looking forward to more pics. I find it intriguing that such a small body still seems to be slightly active, and may, indeed, still have liquid beneath the surface. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

vogon13 · Mar 9, 2005

Hey! Found the picture. N00028183.jpg In the lower right hand corner (and I looked at full resolution and let computer enlarge picture quite a bit) there are some 'entwined' veins. Look them over very carefully. In a several places a 'vein' is 'draped' over a lower (older?) vein or ridge. In a couple of places, it sure looks like a vein is running up and over a previous vein or ridge. That is just so bizarre. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

chew_on_this · Mar 9, 2005

Here's one:

chew_on_this · Mar 9, 2005

and another:

Enceladus, the Europa of Saturn

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