Endurance critters: from Antarctica to Europa

[h2ouniverse]

This article on Newscientist:<br />http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn13081-antarctic-sub-to-test-waters-for-jupiter-moon-mission.html<br /><br />That will be interesting to see how autonomous this Endurance swimbot will be.<br /><br />I was surprised to see this assertion that the level of radiation at the surface could enable the lander to survive for 1 year. Europa orbiters are rather said to be able to survive for just a few weeks. Any hint?

 

[JonClarke]

On the surface you only get roughly half the radiation you would at Europas's distance because of nadir protection. Plus there may be some reduction of zenith radiation from Europa's small magnetic field. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

btw another article about Europa, on NASA's site this time (with the same picture)<br />http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/europa-20071213.html

 

[3488]

Hi Joel,<br /><br />The idea of diapirs on Europa is not new. Even with the Voyager 2 images, there was some<br />idea of diapirs on Europa.<br /><br />These Galileo images are compelling evidence of diapirs.<br /><br />140 KM x 130 KM area of Europa.<br /><br /> 80 x 95 KM area on Europa.<br /><br />150 KM x 130 KM area on Europa.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Hi Andrew,<br /><br />but there are still "water-skeptics", believing in the warm ice convection assumption...<br /><br />I wonder how an Europa Orbiter would enable to locate points of low thickness of the shelf (for this kind of Swimming Robot to go through).<br />I would rather imagine that points of recent upsurge of water are spotted by the orbiter. And then that a drill-bearing surface robot (Exomar-like), would examine subsurface samples of ice.<br /><br />Best regards.

 

[JonClarke]

Potential field (gravity, magnetics) and radar surveys would all be able to map the thickness of the ice shell.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Thats correct Jon.<br /><br />Europa is likely show mass concentrations & ice penetrating radar will definately <br />settle it.<br /><br />Really the 'decoupling' of the ice crust to the body of Europa needs to be confirmed &<br />refined. If this can be confirmed, then liquid water will be involved, but it does not reveal<br />the depth of any potential ocean on its own, so radar & gravity profiles<br />will be required.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>btw another article about Europa, on NASA's site this time (with the same picture)<br /><hr /></p></blockquote>>http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/europa-20071213.html<p><hr /><br /><br />From the original press release cited on that link:<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Sophisticated reprocessing of data from NASA's Galileo mission has revealed new information about the chemistry of Europa's surface. It maps the presence of carbon dioxide, an important chemical for life, most probably coming from the ocean beneath the surface.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />It does kinda of make you wonder about the possibility of finding life in the oceans of Europa. There are many theories about life beginning in water here on earth. IMO the possible/probable presence of liquid water on Europa and the observation of C02 that may be coming from the water, makes this a question that is definitely worth investigating. You really have to appreciate the work these people do. Very interesting stuff....</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

This is indeed definitely of greater importance. A major objective for Mankind imho. And rather urgent given the obscurantist trend developping.<br /><br />And because it's rather urgent, I was fearing that we may have to wait for too long if, once the Europa Orbiter is done (NASA's or Laplace), the next step is to reach the ocean with a swimbot. It would seem to me that sample analysis from, say, 2 to 5m below surface might be an interesting intermediate step. Provided that fresh ice is analyzed, not too old material degraded by radiations...<br /><br />For sure the altimetry/gravimetry/radar will enable to determine the shelf thickness. But with enough resolution to select a landing site?<br />My fear is that this requirement is not stringent enough for the next Europa Orbiter mission... To be seen...<br /><br />Regards.

 

[3488]

Hi MichealMozina,<br /><br />Europa remember has an awful lot of surface contaniments ejected by its <br />volcanic neighbour Io.<br /><br />Most certainly the Sulphuric Acid on the surface of Europa, some surface salts also,<br />is from Io & most likely the CO2 is as well.<br /><br />Europa's chemistry, certainly sub surface is very hard to fathom out, unless we send a cryobot<br />that can drill / melt through the<br />surface ice.<br /><br />Certainly the low cratering density on Europa reveals much in itself, perhaps much of<br />the current surface being only 30 million years old, although that is an arbitary figure,<br />based on assumptions surrounding the cratering rate in the inner Jovian system.<br />Also the surface decoupling needs to be verified, though images to date, do seem to<br />suggest that this is really happening.<br /><br />Evidence on salts, etc found in Europa's ridges is encouraging, but how much<br />of that chemistry is actually from the subsurface of Europa & how much is a<br />concentrated form from Io, concentrated due to the formation of the ridge?<br /><br />There is a lot of evidence of interesting chemistry going on, but also a lot of assumptions are<br />being bantered around.<br /><br />The Europa Orbiter being a NASA mission or the ESA LAPLACE will reveal much.<br /><br />Really a lander equiped with seismometers, tilt meters & PanCams to really <br />survey the surrounding area & dig into the ice, see how far Io contaniments go &<br />how pure the Europa ice really is.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Joel,<br /><br />I fear that you are correct. The results may not be stringent enough. Either NASA, JAXA or ESA,<br />whoever does this, needs to properly fund this mission properly.<br /><br />Amdrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>For sure the altimetry/gravimetry/radar will enable to determine the shelf thickness. But with enough resolution to select a landing site?</i><br /><br />Probably. Remember the target has to be as big as a landing ellipse, otherwise there is no point sending a lander. landing ellipses are typically 10's of km in size.<br /><br />It's vital to know how thick the icey shell is before we start planning a swimbot. Otherwise billions could be spent on something that does not exist or is out of each. A lander will be able to ground check the remote sensing data with active seismic and ground penetrating radar as well.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

I agree Jon,<br /><br />A swimbot would be a complte total waste, if the subsurface ocean does not exist.<br /><br />I think the chances are it does, but really we need a fully instrumented static lander with<br />sonar, seismometers, tilt meters, PanCams, etc, to do a 'On Site" survey.<br /><br />In fact several of these will be required to land in several completely different locations,<br />based on Voyager 2 & Galileo data. A Europa Orbiter, is what is required simultaneously<br />to provide context data & orbital ground penetrating RADAR.<br /><br />Its a difficult one. I have done many Jupiter system studies & the subsurface ocean<br />on Europa remains a theory. A plausible one, no doubt, but at present there is no direct proof.<br /><br />The most convincing proof are the Artuate Ridges, suggestive of surface decoupling <br />with the interior, suggestive of subsurface liquid.<br /><br />Perhaps 'warm ice' could also do this??????<br /><br />I see no problem in SwimBot / CryoBot research. As an engineering research project, <br />yes go for it. I think we can still use it.<br /><br />Europa is a most fascinating object. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Hi MichealMozina,<br /><br />Europa remember has an awful lot of surface contaniments ejected by its<br />volcanic neighbour Io.<br /><br />Most certainly the Sulphuric Acid on the surface of Europa, some surface salts also,<br />is from Io & most likely the CO2 is as well.<br /><br />Europa's chemistry, certainly sub surface is very hard to fathom out, unless we send a cryobot<br />that can drill / melt through the<br />surface ice. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I really appreciated your scientific insights and your feedback Andrew. Thanks for giving me some other things to think about. <br /><br />I would have to say that if there is liquid water on the planet under the ice, then I would definitely support a mission that was designed to drill into the ice and look for life. It seems to me that life is pretty much capable of adapting to almost any condition here on Earth. I wouldn't be very surprised to find life on other astral bodies in the universe provided they contained liquid water. Liquid water does seem to be a scarce commodity, and it seems to play an instrumental role in many forms of life here on Earth. I think it would be worth the time and money to investigate this moon more closely. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Michael,<br /><br />I agree 100% with you. There MUST be more money & research into Europa, in <br />fact the Jovian system as a whole too. The ESA LAPLACE (assuming it gets funded) is <br />definately a giant step in the right direction.<br /><br />Also Ganymede & Callisto are likely to hold some surprises too.<br /><br />I think (my thoughts only mind you), that much of the strange, complicated chemistry, so far<br />found on Europa is contaminents from Io & perhaps a little from interplanetary space.<br /><br />Having said that though, it does NOT rule out interesting closed system <br />events happenning independently below the ice.<br /><br />A Europa Oribter & a CryoBot that can survey the ive & subsurface are very badly needed<br />indeed.<br /><br />Thank you for your very considerate comments. They are very much appreciated. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>