Engineers in love – when good engineers go bad.

[askold]

I know it’s hard to believe, but even nerdy engineers sometimes fall in love. I’ve seen it and it’s not pretty. Otherwise rational people get all googly-eyed and start acting nuts.<br /><br />That’s the way it seems to be with the shuttle. The engineering community has fallen in love with this pretty bird and now they can’t think straight. If you do the math, the shuttle can not complete its mission. The only rational choice is to send the shuttle a dear John letter and move on to the next thing.<br /><br />It will only hurt a little.<br />

 

[vt_hokie]

The shuttle worked just as well on this last flight as it did 20 years ago. The only difference is that now NASA is not willing to fly with a foam shedding issue that has been present since day 1. <br /><br />I think that the cost of redesiging the external tank for a mere 20 flights or so should be weighed against the cost of modifying the orbiters to deliver remaining ISS components in a unmanned mode. I think the biggest challenges would be automated orbital docking, and getting enough properly trained crewmembers aboard ISS to operate the shuttle's RMS while simultaneously performing the required EVA's. The latter issue might be a showstopper, I imagine.

 

[lunatic133]

Now that's silly. I'm a nerdy engineer and I'm in love with another nerdy engineer and we both function perfectly well as individuals. Do not mock the happiness among nerds by comparing it to the quagmire of the shuttle

 

[propforce]

Good point, Lunatic. You go girl.<br /><br />Do not mock us nerds, beware the revenge of us nerds... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[dragon04]

I know you're speaking metaphorically, but I hope you don't believe that the continuing problems with the shuttle are vindication for your all robot, no Man point of view.<br /><br />I personally agree with you that the STS program needs shut down. Period.<br /><br />However, that door should only be closed to open the next door to Man in space. I take no joy whatsoever in the demise of the shuttle fleet. In fact, it has become one of the great disappointments in my adult life.<br /><br />While I think robotic exploration is a neccessary and good part of our pursuit of knowledge, I'd far rather see the next mission to Titan be men and women standing there and doing real science in an up close and personal way.<br /><br />"To Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before" has become a trite cliche. But that very ideal and spirit is why Columbus sailed west. It's why people spread out into the unknown American wilderness and not only tamed it, but developed it and thrived. As a species, I think we need that spirit.<br /><br />I read one of your posts where you stated (and I'm paraphrasing) that if a robotic mission fails, the mission team basically says "oh well" and goes home. As opposed to a manned mission where people die/<br /><br />That's a dangerous and slippery slope to travel. Manned spaceflight requires vigilance, precision and effort above and beyond the call of duty. BECAUSE human lives are at stake. BECAUSE we're not taking the easy road. That leads to excellence. To achievement. To conquest. We not only dream the impossible dream, we turn it into reality. There is value in that that can't be expressed in dollars.<br /><br />If you read my reply in the STS....March thread, you might say that I'm contradicting myself. But I'm not. I simply advocate the next generation of manned spacecraft as opposed to expending resources to keep the current system in operation.<br /><br />Boots on Mars do far more than prove that we can do it. Those boots inspire people. They ignite passion to r <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[rgornowicz]

When you look and analyze as closely as the STS missions are being analyzed there are bound to be processes or machinery that isn't working as designed. Nothing will ever be perfect, but the time comes when someone has to take a step back and say, "Do the ends really justify the means?" It can cost an exhorbitant amount to fix the problems. Is it really worth it when the shuttle is due to be retired in a little over 4 years?<br /><br />Before the argument is raised about the price of human life that could possibly be lost, remember that being an astronaut is a risky business. Every single time they get strapped in it could be their last time, but they still do it because that is their passion.<br /><br />Odds are that the shuttle will fly the rest of it's scheduled missions without a hitch.

 

[rgornowicz]

"But that very ideal and spirit is why Columbus sailed west. It's why people spread out into the unknown American wilderness and not only tamed it, but developed it and thrived. As a species, I think we need that spirit. "<br /><br />Think how many men, women, and children died to accomplish this. How many died in spaceflight as a comparison?

 

[askold]

First of all, no, I'm not gloating. The very core of my position is that this is an engineering matter and people should not be emotionally invested in the outcome. If the shuttle is the best tool - let's fly it; if it's not, then let's use the better tool.<br /><br />Again, from an engineering perspective, I don't have a "no man" point of view. I'm just not in any great hurry to get to Mars. I'd love to see people explore Mars in my lifetime, but it wouldn't break my heart if it didn't happen for 100 years. I don't think we have the technology or the will to effectively do manned exploration right now.<br /><br />One criticism I will admit to is that I take a cold and logical view of such matters. The romance and glory of space travel - sorry, I don't have it in me. I'm interested in the insight and knowledge gained, and in spin-off technologies that can be used to solve problems on Earth.<br /><br />And regarding Columbus - he didn't sail west to go where no man had gone before. He was going to the Orient (or so he thought); he just wanted to find a cheaper way to get there. And his crew was not exactly a boat full of romantics either - Chris had to lie to them about how far they'd gone to keep them from mutiny!

 

[shuttle_rtf]

Nice points...welcome addition to this forum.

 

[lunatic133]

Simply because you feel this way doesn't mean that you should ruin the fun for everyone else. There are still millions of people in the world who believe in the future of manned spaceflight, and believe it will happen in our lifetimes. I disagree, the technology to explore space exists, and it has existed since the 1960's. And the will is not there because people like you say it's impossible. You may be incapable of feeling any emotion but that doesn't mean the rest of the world is. That doesn't mean there aren't people inspired by the "romance and glory of it," as you put it. There is more to being human than just cold hearted logic -- that is why engineers fall in love, and there is NOTHING wrong with it. If anything, it makes us human -- otherwise, we are no different than the robots who can feel nothing, who you think are the only ones worthy of exploring the universe. There is more to life than pure logic. Some people might be happy looking at a picture of a beach on their computer, are happy enough reading on a web site about marine life and temperature readings in the Pacific Ocean. Others want to go there, feel the sand in their fingers, feel the warm sun on your face, feel the cool waves on your feet. Feel and smell the salty breeze. Collect seashells with your own two hands. It's infinite times more exciting than just looking at a picture of it, and if you cannot feel that difference, or would disparage those who can, then quite honestly, I feel sorry for you. I'm sorry if my words are harsh but that is how I feel.

 

[frodo1008]

Your thinking IS truly beautiful, and I couldn't agree more! <br /><br />However, where askold IS incorrect is where he states that there are just romantic reasons for the manned space program. I have given this lecture before, and I am not sure that he is listening, but for the rest of us..<br /><br />Humanity doesn't even need any romantic reasons for the manned space program at all, The manned space exploration program IS only the beginning. What mankind MUST do if it is to survive in the long run is to learn to work in space. We must do this in order to EXPLOIT the resources of space. <br /><br />If we don't do this then we are either (1) going to actually start to run out of those very materials on the Earth, that are in almost unlimited supply within our solar system. Or, (2) we will so pollute this space ship Earth in trying to raise the general level of the standard of living of all of humanity that this space ship becomes unlivable! While neither of these things will happen immediately or possibly within our own lifetimes (certainly not mine as I am already 62). One (or even worse both) WILL eventually happen to our decendants!<br /><br />I have also stated rather forcefully that the robotic exploration program IS NOT in competition with the manned exploration program. It is instead, a compliment to such a program. There are even many places within the solar system that human beings may NEVER get to go to. These are places like the inner moons of Jupiter, where dispite such movies as 2001 and 2010 the radiation levels from Jupiter are almost as high as those within the core of a nuclear reactor! SO it IS our robots that will have to explore and exploit these places!<br /><br />As to affordiing such programs, the US alone spends many times as much on cigaretts, booze, and drugs, that only ruin peoples lives than it does on the entire NASA and private industry space programs. Both robotic AND human!!<br /><br />Just as an example of how NASA is trying to k

 

[askold]

Normally, people have to get to know me before they pity me - to paraphrase Jerry Maguire.<br /><br />Where did you get the idea I'm a cold-hearted ogre with no connection to the beautiful world around us? I'll have you know that far from looking at pictures of the Pacific Ocean on my computer, I spend significant time sailing on that ocean - can't get much closer to nature than that. In fact, I kind of like our little planet - which is one reason I'm not in any great hurry to stand on one of Jupiter's moons - can't sail my boat on a methane sea.<br /><br />How am I ruining the fun for you? I'm stating my views in an articulate and intelligent manner (in my humble opinion). My views are not entirely unique - others on this board are saying similar things; major news publications are saying similar things.<br /><br />If you don't think there is room on this board for more than one point of view, I suggest you don't read my posts.

 

[lunatio_gordin]

There is a difference between "point of views" and "OMG We'll never get off this rock! Let's not even try!"

 

[wvbraun]

"The romance and glory of space travel - sorry, I don't have it in me."<br /><br />That's the problem. With people like you in charge the space program would never have gotten off the ground. All the great pioneers of spaceflight (Tsiolkovsky, Oberth, Goddard, von Braun,...) were dreamers and without them we would not even have an unmanned-only exploration program.

 

[askold]

Dreamers??? What on Earth are you talking about? Who are the "dreamers" in NASA? I wouldn't recommend they use the dreamers argument at the next budget meeting with Congress - "We want $20 billion to go to Mars because we're dreamers ....".<br /><br />I think maybe you've read a few too many Flash Gordon comics.