eye wall hurricane at Saturn new or old?

[bonzelite]

so how long has this storm gone un-noticed? or is it new? or is the data itself too new to ascertain anything? <br /><br />it's scary looking regardless. here's carolyn porco's link to it:<br />http://ciclops.org/index.php

 

[MeteorWayne]

Well it's not entirely unusual that unique structures develop around planetary poles, but that sure is one impressive structure!<br /><br />Glad you brought it to our attention. I had not seen it before. Ain't Cassini wonderful? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

my pleasure. i get emails from the cyclops.org/carolyn porco site. and i got it before i saw the blurb on the SDC homepage. i then saw the homepage and decided to post about it. <br /><br />my immediate idea was that the storm is ancient and perpetual, and that Saturn as a world is actually, if you will, an extension of a giant storm. that is literally to say that the planet saturn, similar to all of the gas planets we've encountered in our local neighborhood, is a cyclonic entity --whose existence is predicated upon the very continuation and perpetual motion effects of cyclonic activity-- without which the planet would not continue. <br /><br />my first idea was that the storm is permanent, albeit waxing and waning in intensity, perhaps burying itself deeper into the atmospheric interior, then perhaps bobbing back up near the surface to reveal the gaping hole. <br /><br />saturn, then, is an engine or motor that is physically dependent upon the existence of vortices and a central polar hurricane; the polar storm is, then, the primary or alpha storm giving rise to all others. <br /><br />i personally cannot go out to prove this empirically, but i posit the idea regardless.

 

[yevaud]

The idea isn't as odd as it sounds. What you said bears a certain resemblance to what occurs on Earth during cold weather, with conditions in the far north generating small outriders of cold and disturbed air that detach and then move, generating storms. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

hmm. that's very interesting, then. thank you for the feedback. <br /><br />it makes sense to me by simply looking at the planet and what is presented visually. the polar storm is the 'primary' from which the rest of the planet bears consequence. <br /><br />now ----- /> this vortex wall is created by interior dynamics probably originating thousands of miles within the planet ---and then creating domino effects as it transfers this energy to the outer layers of the atmosphere. so what we see on the surface is the result of thousands of miles of energy "baton passings." <br /><br />now ----- /> what is this interior energy? what is driving the planetary motor?

 

[yevaud]

Well, two things: one primary and one secondary.<br /><br />Primary is what drives all weather: heat differentials. Though Saturn is far from the Sun, and so receives only a small amount of solar insolation, it does receive it. It also has heat differential from the sheer pressure of that atmosphere and the densely compressed core. So there's three heat-driven mechanisms (or correction, more precisely, sources of heat) to keep things "moving."<br /><br />The second is coupling. <br /><br />Meaning that gasses, as in an atmosphere, possess inertia no more no less than anything else you try to force to move. And with the rotation of Saturn around the poles, what you get is differing velocities of atmosphere depending how close you are to the pole. Closer, higher velocity; farther away, lower velocity. These regions couple, or try to. That coupling frequently creates cyclonic storms.<br /><br />In other words, it's a very chaotic and complicated situation.<br /><br />This is what I went to school for. Love the stuff! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

it's roughly equivalent to ocean waves that then come ashore --the water closer to the bottom, that becoming shallow nearer the shore, drags beneath the water on top, creating the crest of the wave that then breaks ashore. the coupling is the same in that we have differing bands of air moving at differing rates, creating drag upon the faster moving region. this then loops over and creates a cyclonic effect, in essence a wave that never breaks on the shore but continues rotating in a full ellipse, unabated. <br /><br />

 

[bonzelite]

the energy/heat that is powering this "motor," ie, saturn, must be unfathomably violent and hot to churn a planet of that size for what is apparently millions of centuries. is mere pressure alone, then, of the gas planet's interior enough to generate this kind of dynamo?

 

[yevaud]

Ah.<br /><br />Here's a Cassini image with radiometric data showing temperature flow. It shows a region of warmer atmosphere descending within the eye storm; part of it's heat-driven circulation.<br /><br />PhysOrg Article <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

I propose that we should name this perpetual superstorm "The Fist-of-God". I am sure Niven fans will recognize the reference.<br /><br />Now if Saturn was a hollow planet.... <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

it seems to me, then, that saturn is a giant air pump, recirculating it's own material in perpetuity. stuff seems to simultaneously collapse within the whirlpool-like vortices to deep within the interior, only to then perhaps re-emerge on the other pole, on the other side. or something like this is going on there. <br /><br />there are polar, exact polar, vortices on Venus (double eyed) as well as (if i recall correctly) on Jupiter. <br /><br />now is there a connection here? and furthermore, can similar mechanisms be responsible for the polar jetting of water at Enceladus? <br /><br />what is with this thematic polar vortex thing?

 

[yevaud]

Yes, Chmee. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Well, that's unlikely. More properly, it's a heat driven vertical circulation system that brings material from lower down upwards and vice versa. Then there's the rotation of the planet, which is what creates the circular rotation pattern.<br /><br />The Thematic (hey, good one, as Cassini is using a sort of Thematic Mapper) graphic is showing us a flow of material from the upper atmosphere being transported downwards, as demonstrated by the colored region - the colors, of course, represent heat. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

you're saying pretty much what i posited. it's an air pump of recycling material. the material is the air, the atmosphere; it's a gas planet -- i did not mean like a tire pump for a bicycle.

 

[yevaud]

Ah, what I meant was the pole-to-pole transport system you mentioned. That appears to be unlikely. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

True, that. <br /><br />As I tried to explain (probably made a hash of it), it's caused by a combination of heat transport and coriolis force caused by Saturn's rotation. You get coupling effects that can be awfully odd indeed. <br /><br />I suppose "Eye Storm" is as good a term as any. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Yep. Not enough data points to say much more. But I find that the heat-transport radiometric data, as shown by the image I posted, is pretty distinctive. I've seen this before, and modelled it before as well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

<font color="yellow"><br />& SURELY it's no hurricane & NOTHING even remotely ( ) Like a hurricane. </font><br /><br /><i>nothing</i> remotely like a hurricane? with characteristic vertical structure thereof? and it appears merely as a vortex, but, really, is not one? <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br />regardless of what it is, then, all of this material is being sucked or drained into this vortex/ hole. how, then, does the material recirculate once it is buried deep into the planet? what goes in must come out. saturn has only a finite amount of material to transport. it cannot only take matter into it's interior. it must also expel or recirculate this material. <br /><br />so where and how does it emerge for redistribution?

 

[yevaud]

Well, it does transport the atmosphere around, so to speak. But it's dynamics are not that of a hurricane. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Here's what I meant by that. This is an animation showing Hadley Cell circulation. Select "Idealized Hadley Cell Circulation," and watch. Now place this type of circulation pattern at a pole, adding in a tight pressure gradient, and a fairly high rotational velocity component. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>nothing remotely like a hurricane? with characteristic vertical structure thereof? and it appears merely as a vortex, but, really, is not one? <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />What he's saying is that it may not fit the terrestrial definition of a hurricane, which so far no non-terrestrial storm has done (not even the Great Red Spot).<br /><br />That said, this looks a lot more like a hurricane than any other extra-terrestrial storm yet observed, because unlike those other storms, this one has an eyewall. It seems beyond reason that the same exact mechanisms can be in place on Saturn, so it's very intriguing. What creates the eyewall? Terrestrial hurricanes are driven in large part by the oceans. Saturn lacks oceans, although it may have something that functions in a similar way to drive this structure. What's interesting, though, is that this is centered on Saturn's pole. That makes it very different from terrestrial hurricanes, which generally start out as tropical storms. However, polar vortices are known on Earth, and have been obsered on other worlds as well, so its seems reasonable to suppose that this is more like those polar vortices than like a terrestrial hurricane.<br /><br />But it's a very weird structure. This should keep planetary meteorologists busy for quite a while. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

The eyewall isn't that hard to explain, really. The sheer pressure gradient between the interior of the storm and exterior is quite steep. And of course, there's the additional effects of it's rotational component. So an eyewall is not a surprise.<br /><br />A Hurricane has certain similar qualities, true, but it's really not the same thing. Different root causes and dynamics.<br /><br />(FYI, Planetary Atmospheres was where I had originally intended on taking my majors in College. Never did. Ah, well, I'm still young. We'll see...) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

thank you, Calli. <br /><br />to the others ----take a damn chill pill! it's always a semantic cross-examination here; oh the hair-splitting horrors! run for your lives! <br /><br />it has an <i>eye wall;</i> it is the most terrestrial-like storm structure ever observed. therefore it is <i>not</i> far-removed and "nothing like a hurricane." it is absolutely like one. it may not be a carbon-copy of an earthly storm, nor have the same reasons for existing --- but it is an eye-walled vortex --why the entire word "hurricane" is so maligned is beyond me. it would have been even worse had i said "typhoon." <br /><br />as well, i used the generic word vortex, and that, too, was maligned! <br /><br />so we cannot call it anything?! <br /><br />another thing, it is very clear to me, and has been since i can remember, that Saturn is not like a terrestrial planet! and it probably has things going on that we are unaware of! wouldn't you think?! like -- gee golly!<br /><br />furthermore, being that the entire planet is evidently a ball of violent gas, probably kinda maybe heated somehow, it doesn't have any land for a storm to dissipate over, as if the entire planet were really one giant storm, with the polar vortex (a bad word here, i know!) being the "prmary" or alpha vortex, perhaps giving rise to all others (except if there is a northern counterpart) as i posited in an earlier post! <br /><br /><br /><br />

 

[yevaud]

Bonzelite, an eyewall isn't exclusively the province of a Terrestrial hurricane. It's an effect caused by any number of things. In this particular case, there are <i>superficial</i> similarities to a hurricane; that doesn't actually make it one.<br /><br />(Not certain who maligned you) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

<font color="yellow"><br />Bonzelite, an eyewall isn't exclusively the province of a Terrestrial hurricane.</font><br />obviously. there is one on Saturn. i think that is what the thread is about.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">It's an effect caused by any number of things. In this particular case, there are superficial similarities to a hurricane; that doesn't actually make it one. <br /></font><br /><br />understand. i'm sure the planet Saturn is not exactly like the planet Earth. <br /><br />what would make it a hurricane by definition, then? i'm just asking a straight up question.