Gravito-Magnetic London Effect

[barrykirk]

This is a re-posting of an earlier posting I made in another thread.<br /><br />Assuming that the Gravito-Magnetic London effect is real. How does one go about scaling it up into something useful.<br /><br />Let me explain by analogy.<br /><br />When Faraday first discovered Magnetic Induction, the first currents he generated were on the order of milli or micro watts and the currents lasted for a fraction of a second.<br /><br />I'm talking about when he first discovered the effect.<br /><br />Now we have electric generators that can crank out megawatts continously.<br /><br />So, how does one scale up the Gravito-Magnetic London effect?<br /><br />Well, it take a lot of energy to spin the mass up and down like they were doing. Also, it is a slow process taking almost a second.<br /><br />Is it possible to turn the superconductivity of the material on/off at a faster rate. I don't know what means would be used for that.<br /><br />If you were to take your superconducting disk and spin it up to much higher RPM... Say 25,000 RPM and keep it at constant velocity. Then switch the superconductivity on and off at a decent frequency, would that be possible?<br /><br />Or would it be possible to use something that provides the same effect as a super-conductor with just free electrons? They have a lot less mass to accelerate than entire atoms. I'm just asking questions, because I really don't know the answers.<br /><br />Also, is it possible to generate gravitational repulsion forces with this new effect?<br /><br />That would seem to me to be critical for getting useful applications out of it.

 

[egom]

This is highly speculative and is way out of my expertise to be frank...<br /><br />EgoM

 

[barrykirk]

Absolutely pure speculation...But it might make the basis for a good science fiction story. Who knows.

 

[larper]

"The Genesis Machine", James P Hogan. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Vote </font><font color="#3366ff">Libertarian</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[barrykirk]

That brings back memories... I read that... lets see... about 20 years ago.<br /><br />Don't think were talking about quite the same effect though.

 

[marijuanaman]

I cant believe there are so many smart smart people here and there is this so called london moment being talked about and to me it seems everyone is afraid of talking about this.<br /><br />You guys disapoint me, how can people that are so smart be so stupid they wont have an open mind and at least PROVE it wrong instead of Talking &%$#@! about it ?

 

[larper]

Might not have been the same technology (funny word to use, since both are science fiction), but the discussion was the same. <br /><br />They had the ability to turn gravity on and off. The scientists had a good time discussing what they could do with that. One of them proposed floating cities and such. The long and short of it is that the author points out that if you can turn on and off a gravity source, then you have the gravity equivalent of the electro-magnet. Prior to the discovery of electromagnetism, magnets were weak and had to be "found" in the form of lodestone and such. Today, permanent magnets can be made through use of electromagnets, and together both are the cornerstones of our entire technology. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Vote </font><font color="#3366ff">Libertarian</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[mlorrey]

It doesn't help that a guy with the handle "marijuana man" is calling other people stupid....

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">It doesn't help that a guy with the handle "marijuana man" is calling other people stupid.... </font><br /><br />And they're supposedly fourteen years old. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[tomnackid]

IF the effect turns out to be real. (A lot of people have been trying to get consistent results for a while now without a lot of luck.) then the biggest result will be just the knowledge that there is a link between electromagnetism and gravity. We are pretty good at controlling electromagnetism, but up till now the only theoretical way to produce a gravity field equal to Earth's is to gather up mass equal to the Earth's mass. The only way to cancel Earth's gravity is to suspend an Earth sized mass over your head--not very convenient! Knowing that there is a link between gravity and electromagnetism could open many doors into the field of "gravity engineering". The actual London effect itself may be a dead end technologically speaking but as a research tool it could be important. <br /><br />Note: I have my doubts about the London effect. I think the "mystique of magnets" is once again rearing its head, this time with superconductivity thrown in as a new twist. But on the other hand I would be ecstatic if it does turn out to be real.

 

[barrykirk]

Yes, If this effect turns out to be real, it would open unbelievable possibilities for new types of engineering.<br /><br />Who knows maybe even interstellar propulsion. Even sublight would be fantastic.<br /><br />So, yes this is an exciting idea. Now temper that with the fact that it isn't confirmed as of yet....<br /><br />One of the reasons that I was talking about ways of magnifying the conditions that cause the effect is to.<br /><br />a) Better understand it and measure it.<br />b) Start down the road of practical engineering with it.<br /><br />As for Gravity and ElectroMagnetism being linked, that isn't a question.<br /><br />According to Einstein, a gravity field can bend the path of a photon and a gravity field can red shift or blue shift a photon.<br /><br />So, their is a link... In one direction at least....<br /><br />One of Michael Faraday's motivations for studying Magnetic Induction was that he knew that an electric current could generate a magnetic field, so he knew the two effects were linked. But he thought the reverse should be possible that a magnetic field could generate a current.<br /><br />And look at what the fallout from that discovery has been!!!<br />

 

[yevaud]

<i>And look at what the fallout from that discovery has been!!!</i><br /><br />True.<br /><br />Two comments (perphaps) attributed to Faraday:<br /><br />Two classic quotes are attributed to Faraday -<br /><br />Whilst attempting to explain a discovery to either Gladstone (Chancellor) or Peel (Prime Minister) he was asked, 'But, after all, what use is it?' Faraday replied, 'Why sir, there is the probability that you will soon be able to tax it.'<br /><br />When the Prime Minister asked of a new discovery, 'What good is it?', Faraday replied, 'What good is a new-born baby?' <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[mlorrey]

yes, though Faraday had something to work with: electrons produce electric current, and electrons are very eager to be moved around in solid conductive material given mere chemical bond potentials.<br /><br />We don't know if gravitons can exist, though the intermediate boson is given that name. The theory is that there are gravity waves, gravity radiation, produced by acceleration of massive bodies: <br />http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/grav_radiation.html<br /><br />The first stage of LIGO, a two detector set-up in the U.S., has been approved by Congress in 1992. LIGO researchers have started designing a prototype detector, and are hoping to enrol another nation, probably in Europe, to fund and be host to the third detector. [Update 1996: the LIGO projects are progressing and the first may go into operation around 1999. There are now two major projects in Europe, VIRGO and GEO. See foot for links.]<br /><br />The speed of gravitational radiation (Cgw) depends upon the specific model of Gravitation that you use. There are quite a few competing models (all consistent with all experiments to date) including of course Einstein's but also Brans-Dicke and several families of others. All metric models can support gravity waves. But not all predict radiation travelling at Cgw = Cem. (Cem is the speed of electromagnetic waves.)<br /><br />There is a class of theories with "prior geometry", in which, as I understand it, there is an additional metric which does not depend only on the local matter density. In such theories, Cgw != Cem in general.<br /><br />However, there is good evidence that Cgw is in fact at least almost Cem. We observe high energy cosmic rays in the 1020 to 1021 eV region. Such particles are travelling at up to (1-10-18)*Cem. If Cgw < Cem, then particles with Cgw < v < Cem will radiate Cherenkov gravitational radiation into the

 

[jatslo]

... I will be impressed when they reverse polarity to levitate an object, and then direct that object from point A to point B without the use of mirrors, and/or wires. A wireless self-ssutaining prototype, so to speak. What will we do with it? Yeah, right!!! How about shread hurricanes from space!!!!

 

[mlorrey]

GW propagation range is probably too far to be used on Earth. Using antigravity means hauling a significant field of atmosphere up into space with you.

 

[barrykirk]

Which leads to the fact that we are arguing in a vacuum. Metaphorically speaking.<br /><br />We need more experimental data.<br /><br />More experimental data will make things much more clear, but will create as many new questions as it answers. Such is the way of science.

 

[jatslo]

Improving a vacuum to increase the velocity of a beam of light is propagation that makes for larger and faster transmissions that are likely binary. This model is a scalar model; however, if they can reverse polarity, then the potential for vector models are real, and that is the same as a gravity gun with a conical beam at first. We may find that things like temperature affect it. etc etc etc etc...<br /><br />momentum will prevail in beam, as will an electromagnetic field that spirals along the length of the beam. Could it be that containment *IS* electromagnetic????<br /><br />

 

[nova_explored]

"I cant believe there are so many smart smart people here and there is this so called london moment being talked about and to me it seems everyone is afraid of talking about this.<br /><br />You guys disapoint me, how can people that are so smart be so stupid they wont have an open mind and at least PROVE it wrong instead of Talking &%$#@! about it ?"<br /><br />so start it off wonderkind.<br /><br />and btw, this experiment is a continuation of many theoritical experiments that started in the 60's. i don't think anyone is afraid, but much like those that performed the experiment have concluded, they just don't know if they are right. gravity is the toughest subject in physics, because no one really knows what it is and how it relates to the other field theories with absolute certainty.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

... if gravity alters space-time, as in folding/warping, then time is affected, as well, so life spans can be increased as a result of technological advances in the field. ... This is a "Space Business & Technology" forum, and talking about applications is justified under the circumstances, I think.

 

[CalliArcale]

I don't think time dilation could increase life spans in a useful way, at least not in the sense of making ourselves immortal. We'd just move into the future more quickly. In other words, you might live 75 years either way, but with time dilation, you could die 300 years in the future. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Right, the observers would age more quickly; however, if you could hold out for a cure ... Meaning, if you had terminal cancer, for example, you could slow down, so science can speed up the cure. Think of it as sleep animation, but you are not sleeping...

 

[egom]

I think that everybody here realises that we are just at the begining of a new domain if the experiments are validated. I think that they will. However we miss some very important data: <br />1. if we increase the size of the disc does the gravitomagnetic field increase, decrease or it remains constant?<br />2. If we start spinning the disc faster does the field increase, decrease or remains the same?<br /><br />Those guys worked for like 3 years on this experiment so it seems obvious for me that they know all this but they prefer not to disclose it. The reason: unknown...<br /><br />EgoM

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Think of it as sleep animation, but you are not sleeping... <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Ah, now I get what you were saying. Well, it would be more reliable than current cryonics program. (In one embarassing moment, the couple who pioneered the idea of having your body cryogenically preserved after death for future revival had to be cremated. A power outage had robbed their freezer of power long enough that they started to thaw.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

Well, here is a big what-if, but it strikes me as a possible...<br /><br />Excitons are states that can be created on the surface of a semiconductor that are basically electrons orbiting holes. There are some scattering issues, but excitons are mobil within the outter domains of the crystal latice. They can form superconducting cooper pairs in some cases.<br /><br />Now imagine a semiconductor crafted to create quantum wells to contain and channel the excitons within a circular racetrack. With mobil excitons in motion on said racet rack a G-M London moment MIGHT be produced. The excitons MIGHT be acted on by an external magnetic fields, perhaps created by excitonic josephson junction transistors surrounding the race track at regular intervals attracting and repelling the magnetic component of the London moment. This is important since the quantum well would be subject to relativistic shielding effects once things get up to speed.<br /><br />Assuming this is at all possible, the advantages of such a system is that it is compact, nearly self-contained, could be arrayed in large numbers, and could be easilly fabricated using traditional semiconductor methodologies.<br /><br />The disadvantages are that there are practical applications of josephson junction transistors, but there are no existing applications of excitons to my knowledge. Excitons can be easilly created but I haven't seen anything about anyone managing their quirky motions. But then again, has anyone ever tried?<br /><br />Most commonly, excitons are created by flashing light onto the surface of cryo-cooled germanium crystals. Some stay put and decay with a flash of light, others run off the page. Like I said, scattering is a big problem. Scattering can be managed, however. If the physics pans out for the G-M London moment then the rest is just engineering!<br /><br />

 

[mystex]

Since gravity can warp time, if we could create artificial gravity and anti gravity we could use them to build a time portal. Also think of the boons to space travel. If you create artificial gravity the health concerns of gravity free environs go out the window.