Heat Death question

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ihwip

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I remember way back in my physics classes there being mention of a possible heat death of the universe scenario where all the entropy in the universe was lost from heat exchange and matter could no longer change states and therefore the universe would cease to function.<br /><br />Is this scenario still possible? Is entropy the right term? I remember the term enthalpy too I can't remember the difference.<br /><br />Also, would Hawking Radiation add entropy to the system?
 
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kmarinas86

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<font color="yellow">I remember way back in my physics classes there being mention of a possible heat death of the universe scenario where all the entropy in the universe was lost from heat exchange and matter could no longer change states and therefore the universe would cease to function.<br /><br />Is this scenario still possible?</font><br /><br />If there is no exceedingly large object to collect all the energy that is wasted into the vacuum, then yes. If the universe is homogenous and isotropic, then yes, there will be heat death.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Is entropy the right term?</font><br /><br />As long as you know what it is. However, it is better to define it in terms of convergence and divergence of energy. Divergence of energy means that more and more energy is becoming unavailable to do work. Convergence of energy means that more and more energy is becoming available to do work. For our purposes, the event horizon of black holes is like a vacuum, despite it's nature of being in a strong gravitational field. This lack of usable energy translates into a divergence of energy for someone just outside of the black hole. That is heat death. However, in a forever infinite universe, somebody's heat loss is another's heat gain. The heat loss to space is a gain for space. The heat removed from space by a solar panel is a loss for space and a gain for the solar panel. As long as the universe is not a closed system, then entropy is conserved.<br /><br />Entropy depends on whether that energy cannot be reached. If we lose all our marbles, we are goners. Gravity and photon storage in the electron prevent us from losing our marbles. The marbles allow us to do work. Without these things, we would be undifferentiated "energy" (we would not be us).<br /><br />Just like how having too many calories prevents healthy living (makes your fat tissue unvailable to do work), If the available energy is too much for the life to hold itself togeth
 
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newtonian

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IHWIP - Heat death assumes our universe is a closed system thermodynamically. It does not take into account the cause of the creation of our universe.<br /><br />One should ask why the universe began to exist in the first place and how so much energy became available at what is commonly called the big bang?<br /><br />Many believe in God - and Isaiah 40:26 links the existence of stars to plural forms of God's dynamic energy and power - in effect indicating our universe was created by input of energy and power.<br /><br />Simply, our universe apparently was not a closed system.<br /><br />Scientists have many models as to how our universe started with such a vast amount of available energy - thermodynamically extremely active.<br /><br />To illustrate - if your built a house, entropy would eventually cause your house to return to the most stable state - i.e. it would return to the dust, so to speak.<br /><br />On the other hand, you could continually repair, remodel or sustain your home so it would not succumb to death by entropy, so to speak.<br /><br />If you believe in God, you might ask: will God sustain our universe, or remodel it? I will not go into Biblical astronomy on this question further unless you request it.<br /><br />Strictly scientifically, our universe may not remain a closed system thermodynamically.<br /><br />Some astronomers, notably Loeb, have postulated that our universe may already be interacting with another universe beyond our visibility horizon.<br /><br />Interactions between other universes may infuse our universe with vast amounts of energy and therefore could lead to an outcome quite in contrast with the heat death model for the future of our universe.<br /><br />In fact, the collision of branes model for our universe posits a similar infusion of energy for the origin of our universe.<br /><br />The key point here bears repeating:<br /><br />Our universe may not remain a closed system thermodynamically speaking.<br /><br />One definition of entropy, btw, is the
 
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ihwip

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What if dark matter is dead matter? Sometimes when I think about the cooling of isolated systems, I wonder if it is possible that mass can lose so much energy that it no longer interacts with other mass except through gravity. What if this is the universe's final state? Dead matter.<br /><br />I am beginning to think maybe there is a pattern. Maybe in the big bang everything had all this energy that is slowly dissipitating into mass. Once it all becomes mass it spreads out evenly enough that it no longer interacts with eachother.<br /><br />If we really want to try predicting vast expanses of time we could ask what happens after that, a new big bang?
 
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Saiph

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the one problem with that, is the primary mechanism for matter to interact with other matter (besides gravity) is electro-magnetism.<br /><br />So the "cooled mass" has to become neutral in charge...which violates charge conservation...<br /><br />Doesn't mesh with particle physics. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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newtonian

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stevehw33 - I disagree with two points as you posted:<br /><br />1. Despite false claims of the universe being created by something, which is irrelevant to science, that's what's likely to happen. <br /><br />2. Basically, entropy ensures that energy and disorder will be maximized and that heat and concentrations of mass will be diffused. <br /><br />OK, on:<br /><br />1. If you believe the claim that the universe was created by something to be false - does this mean you believe the universe was created by nothing? <br /><br />what happenned to the law of conservation of matter and energy? <br /><br />I strongly disagree - our universe came from something, not nothing.<br /><br />And this is highly relevant to science - it involves determining cause and effect. Assuming a cause to be irrelevant to science will squash incentives to discover scientifically the cause or causes of the origin of our universe.<br /><br />Of course, since you ignore the cause of the infusion of vast amounts of energy into our universe at its origin you would naturally assume heat death to be correct.<br /><br />Why do you assume this - or do I misunderstand your posted statement?<br /><br />2. Entropy does not insure energy will be maximized- what do you mean by this?<br /><br />Entropy does involve heat being diffused - that part I agree with.<br /><br />Entropy means disorder will be maximized? What is maximum disorder? Chaos? <br /><br />How do you explain the law and order in our universe - how do you harmonize that with entropy?<br /><br />Entropy does not ensure concentrations of mass will be diffused. Have you forgotten about gravity?<br /><br />Entropy as the 2nd law of thermodynics does not involve mass distribution. A more general definition of entropy going beyond thermodynamics does involve mass - but it states the mass will tend toward its most stable state. The most stable state of mass involves gravity and gravity will cause stable concentrations of mass.<br /><br />BTW, while entropy causes
 
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newtonian

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IHWIP - Saiph is correct - entropy does not remove charge. <br /><br />I do not know how charge was created in the origin of our universe - but I suspect it has to do with intelligent design - that laws require a law-giver, and this involves properties such as charge and spin, etc.<br /><br />There would be no other big bang as our universe apparently will expand forever.<br /><br />The future of our universe, however, involves the origin of our universe.<br /><br />It is not that the big band will occur again.<br /><br />It is that the cause of the origin of the universe can cause other things as well.<br /><br />If you ignore the cause of the origin of the entropy or our universe - with its incredible amount of energy input - you will naturally assume heat death.<br /><br />But how is it logical to ignore the cause of the origin of our universe in predicting the future of our universe?
 
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