Hilarious Possible Cause of Dinosaur Extinction

emperor_of_localgroup · Jul 1, 2008

I had this crazy thought a while back and worked on the theory a bit to get a feel of all the variables necessary in such situation. Then I put this aside for much more real important works. But recently I noticed a couple of threads in SDC forums which may relate to my crazy theory. The threads are about dinosaurs and lobsters on Mars. Here is a weird possibility for dino extinction. The earth has a escape velocity of approximately 25000mph. It is possible in a distant past earth's  speed was abruptly reduced by at least 25000mph causing most loose objects on the surface of the earth to fly off the earth-surface into space, due of course to inertia. This is the same effect we all observe  while driving cars and by suddenly applying the brakes. I know you are asking how that can ever be possible for our sweet home we call earth. Simple. All the earth needs for a sudden change in speed (or momentum) is a massive space object to fly by without hitting the earth. Currently earth speed around the sun is, again approximately, 64800mph. Which means before this speed reduction the earth had been moving at 89900mph or more, which does not seem too high. I even have a sketch of the fictitious event.   <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/5/a92f15e6-5846-4bc1-851d-226ea93f7e8c.Medium.gif" alt="" />The math is also very simple if we equate the force necessary to reduce earth speed by 25000mph (rate of change in momentum) with gravitational pull on the earth by the massive space object.  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/7/ceb3d42d-b982-44f5-975a-a18b05846adf.Medium.gif" alt="" /> An undergraduate student with Microsoft Excel can easily plot a few graphs showing the relationships between R and M, R and t, M and t, or even M,R and speed of space object, which will enable a speed reduction by 25000mph. The moral of this story (or event or theory) is if we find dino fossils (in fact any fossil) on Mars or Moon or other objects in the solar system, the first thing we must do is run a DNA test, their origin may be this good old earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Earth is Boring </div>

DrRocket · Jul 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I had this crazy thought a while back and worked on the theory a bit to get a feel of all the variables necessary in such situation. Then I put this aside for much more real important works. But recently I noticed a couple of threads in SDC forums which may relate to my crazy theory. The threads are about dinosaurs and lobsters on Mars. Here is a weird possibility for dino extinction.The earth has a escape velocity of approximately 25000mph. It is possible in a distant past earth's  speed was abruptly reduced by at least 25000mph causing most loose objects on the surface of the earth to fly off the earth-surface into space, due of course to inertia. This is the same effect we all observe  while driving cars and by suddenly applying the brakes. I know you are asking how that can ever be possible for our sweet home we call earth. Simple. All the earth needs for a sudden change in speed (or momentum) is a massive space object to fly by without hitting the earth. Currently earth speed around the sun is, again approximately, 64800mph. Which means before this speed reduction the earth had been moving at 89900mph or more, which does not seem too high. I even have a sketch of the fictitious event.   The math is also very simple if we equate the force necessary to reduce earth speed by 25000mph (rate of change in momentum) with gravitational pull on the earth by the massive space object.   An undergraduate student with Microsoft Excel can easily plot a few graphs showing the relationships between R and M, R and t, M and t, or even M,R and speed of space object, which will enable a speed reduction by 25000mph.The moral of this story (or event or theory) is if we find dino fossils (in fact any fossil) on Mars or Moon or other objects in the solar system, the first thing we must do is run a DNA test, their origin may be this good old earth. Posted by emperor_of_localgroup</DIV>Of course the gravity of the Earth can counteract that momentum if applied over a period of about 19 minutes, so the encounter time with the intruding body would have to be rather short.I think that perhaps if we find dino DNA the first test we need to run is blood alcohol on the discoverer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

derekmcd · Jul 2, 2008

Nevermind that we would also have lost our atmosphere and oceans, too... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

BrianSlee · Jul 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I had this crazy thought a while back and worked on the theory a bit to get a feel of all the variables necessary in such situation. Then I put this aside for much more real important works. But recently I noticed a couple of threads in SDC forums which may relate to my crazy theory. The threads are about dinosaurs and lobsters on Mars. Here is a weird possibility for dino extinction.The earth has a escape velocity of approximately 25000mph. It is possible in a distant past earth's  speed was abruptly reduced by at least 25000mph causing most loose objects on the surface of the earth to fly off the earth-surface into space, due of course to inertia. This is the same effect we all observe  while driving cars and by suddenly applying the brakes. I know you are asking how that can ever be possible for our sweet home we call earth. Simple. All the earth needs for a sudden change in speed (or momentum) is a massive space object to fly by without hitting the earth. Currently earth speed around the sun is, again approximately, 64800mph. Which means before this speed reduction the earth had been moving at 89900mph or more, which does not seem too high. I even have a sketch of the fictitious event.   The math is also very simple if we equate the force necessary to reduce earth speed by 25000mph (rate of change in momentum) with gravitational pull on the earth by the massive space object.   An undergraduate student with Microsoft Excel can easily plot a few graphs showing the relationships between R and M, R and t, M and t, or even M,R and speed of space object, which will enable a speed reduction by 25000mph.The moral of this story (or event or theory) is if we find dino fossils (in fact any fossil) on Mars or Moon or other objects in the solar system, the first thing we must do is run a DNA test, their origin may be this good old earth. Posted by emperor_of_localgroup</DIV> Hmm maybe this can also explain why we are all shorter than the dinosaurs now.  The inertial forces exerted on the back side of the planet during the event compacted the survivors.  ;O) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I am therefore I think" "The only thing "I HAVE TO DO!!" is die, in everything else I have freewill" Brian P. Slee </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jul 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hmm maybe this can also explain why we are all shorter than the dinosaurs now.  The inertial forces exerted on the back side of the planet during the event compacted the survivors.  ;O) Posted by BrianSlee</DIV> Yeah but how do you explain giraffes ? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /> @ e_of_lg :  I commend you for taking the time to make your sketch of the proposed event.  I especially like the spaceborn emu's.  More seriously had the Earth been travelling at the speed you calculated prior to the impact, it's orbit would have been vastly different from todays. So we'd have had to get real lucky to hit that space thing at just the right point in our highly elliptical orbit and get the new orbit to be what it is now.  I'm sure the geological record for that time period would unmistakenly indicate such a collision were it to have occured.  I'll also guess that the Moon would have had a hard time keeping up with the Earth's rapid decelleration. So it's an imaginative idea but it seems highly unlikely to me. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

BrianSlee · Jul 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yeah but how do you explain giraffes ?  @ e_of_lg :  I commend you for taking the time to make your sketch of the proposed event.  I especially like the spaceborn emu's.  More seriously had the Earth been travelling at the speed you calculated prior to the impact, it's orbit would have been vastly different from todays. So we'd have had to get real lucky to hit that space thing at just the right point in our highly elliptical orbit and get the new orbit to be what it is now.  I'm sure the geological record for that time period would unmistakenly indicate such a collision were it to have occured.  I'll also guess that the Moon would have had a hard time keeping up with the Earth's rapid decelleration. So it's an imaginative idea but it seems highly unlikely to me. Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV> They were looking down a hole when it happened lol <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I am therefore I think" "The only thing "I HAVE TO DO!!" is die, in everything else I have freewill" Brian P. Slee </div>

silylene old · Jul 2, 2008

In the diagram you showed, the dinosaurs on the earth's surface are also being gravitationally attracted to the red planet passing alongside.  So if the earth's movement along its orbit was slowed or stopped in its orbital path by the red planet, at the same time and equally so, the dinosaurs are also also being slowed or stopped.  So they would remain on the earth's surface.  I hope I am clear.Perhaps the emus falling off the earth was actually one of the types called 'Phorusrhacid', or 'terror bird', the largest of which I think is Dromornis.  These 3m tall flightless bird predators weighed 500 kg or more.  Their heavy hooked beaks were 0.5 m long and could snap a dog-sized prey animal in half in one bite.  They are thought to be able to run about 60km / hr, and likely faster.  Their wings terminated in meathook-like claws.   These birds were larger and fiercer than Titanus, another slightly smaller rhacid which lived until almost modern times (see my other thread on Titanus in the Animals forum).  IMO, these birds could have been perhaps one of the scariest land-based predators of all times.  [In comparison, Deinonychus, the largest of the velociraptors, were only 3m long, about 1 m high, likely ran slower, and had a compartively weak skull and bite.  Both the rhacids and the velociraptors were thought to be smart pack predators, since they had a large brains/body ratio.] <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/14/c2422bfa-9ae0-4233-9ea8-dba5884eb9f4.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jul 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Perhaps the emus falling off the earth was actually one of the types called 'Phorusrhacid', or 'terror bird', the largest of which I think is Dromornis.  Posted by silylene</DIV> It all becomes clear now !  First such a bird would have had no trouble running down any of our mammalian ancestors, crushing their tiny bones and eating them for lunch.  That we are here today shows that they somehow survived.  But how ?  Now we know, the Phorusrhacids were flung off the Earth and into space.  Had they evolved wings they might have survived re-entry but alas time was not their friend on that fateful day.  Where did all the big dino's go ?  Along with the rhacids to their doom.  Why did the small mammals survive.  Well skulking in their tunnels or under trees they might have gotten tumbled and bruised but they stayed put ... and lived .... and he we are today.  It's all so clear now and to think I rejected the OP's idea at first.  Shame on me.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" />  ps - Thx for the info on the "terror bird".  I hadn't known of their existence.  Interesting stuff. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

emperor_of_localgroup · Jul 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In the diagram you showed, the dinosaurs on the earth's surface are also being gravitationally attracted to the red planet passing alongside.  So if the earth's movement along its orbit was slowed or stopped in its orbital path by the red planet, at the same time and equally so, the dinosaurs are also also being slowed or stopped.  So they would remain on the earth's surface.  I hope I am clear. Posted by silylene</DIV>Shame on me for poking fun at good old dinos. Of course my theory at this point has more cons than pros. I'll point out a few.  I did plot a few graphs but lost them. The graph shows it doesn't take a much a larger object than the size of earth to make this momentum change. Closer the space object, the smaller the size and faster. I haven't done any calculation but mass of a dinosaur is too low to experience a significant force towards the traveling object compared to  the sudden force away from it, my uncalculated guess.if applied over a period of about 19 minutes, so the encounter time with the intruding body would have to be rather short. [DrRocket] Absolutely correct, time here is like an 'impluse' time. Even 19 min seems too high. I used time the space object may take to  travel 1 earth diameter. Closer the object to the earth, the faster it must travel.  Nevermind that we would also have lost our atmosphere and oceans, too... [derekmcd] Yes, some air and water will be lost, but not all, that's why after this near collision many species will die.Hmm maybe this can also explain why we are all shorter than the dinosaurs now.  The inertial forces exerted on the back side of the planet during the event compacted the survivors[Brian]Hahaha, this part is still giving me trouble. Don't know what to do with animals on the other side of the planet they will no doubt be affected by the aftershock. Note that, not all dinosaurs will be flying into space, some will  reenter the earth atmosphere from different heights and will die after impacts with ground [like a watermelon dropped from the top of a high skyscaper] More seriously had the Earth been travelling at the speed you calculated prior to the impact, it's orbit would have been vastly different from todays. [mee_n_mac] This is so far is the biggest problem with this theory. I crunched some numbers with my calculator and it turns out earth orbit, with the speed before near collision, falls between Mercury and Venus. Unless the sun had a little larger mass at that time or the space object approached the earth at some other angle.          <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Earth is Boring </div>

tampaDreamer · Jul 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I had this crazy thought a while back and worked on the theory a bit to get a feel of all the variables necessary in such situation. </DIV> I agree this is hillarious and I actually hope that it turns out to be true.  This would have made a good segment in 'the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy'. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

BrianSlee · Jul 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> More seriously had the Earth been travelling at the speed you calculated prior to the impact, it's orbit would have been vastly different from todays. [mee_n_mac] This is so far is the biggest problem with this theory. I crunched some numbers with my calculator and it turns out earth orbit, with the speed before near collision, falls between Mercury and Venus. Unless the sun had a little larger mass at that time or the space object approached the earth at some other angle.          Posted by emperor_of_localgroup</DIV> Ok I am not well versed on orbital mechanics so don't beat me up......What if the offending body came in on the ecliptic plane swung around the sun and passed earth at high velocity on the way out.  That might account for the orbital shift <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I am therefore I think" "The only thing "I HAVE TO DO!!" is die, in everything else I have freewill" Brian P. Slee </div>

BrianSlee · Jul 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Ok I am not well versed on orbital mechanics so don't beat me up......What if the offending body came in on the ecliptic plane swung around the sun and passed earth at high velocity on the way out.  That might account for the orbital shift Posted by BrianSlee</DIV> A second pass before being ejected from the system could also solve that nasty... what about the animals on the other side of the planet? problem also. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I am therefore I think" "The only thing "I HAVE TO DO!!" is die, in everything else I have freewill" Brian P. Slee </div>

trumptor · Jul 2, 2008

I like this theory, lol. It could help explain why birds survived while the other dinosaurs all perished. While the rest were flying out into space, birds might have used their wings and flapped really really hard to stay on earth. Also, if the animals were just thrown high in the air and dropped, obviously birds could have survived the fall while the other dinosaurs may not have. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ______________Caution, I may not know what I'm talking about. </div>

silylene old · Jul 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>....The graph shows it doesn't take a much a larger object than the size of earth to make this momentum change. Closer the space object, the smaller the size and faster. I haven't done any calculation but mass of a dinosaur is too low to experience a significant force towards the traveling object compared to  the sudden force away from it, my uncalculated guess....Posted by emperor_of_localgroup</DIV>However, the dinosaur will show exactly the same relative momentum transfer from the space object as the planet (relative to each of their respective masses), due to the gravitational attraction between the space object and the dino.  Therefore, the dino will remain exactly on the planet.The only exception to the above statement is if there is a very significant tidal interaction which could fling the dino off due to a very rapid change in trajectory.  This is unlikely, the earth would be disrupted first. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

emperor_of_localgroup · Jul 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>However, the dinosaur will show exactly the same relative momentum transfer from the space object as the planet (relative to each of their respective masses), due to the gravitational attraction between the space object and the dino.  Therefore, the dino will remain exactly on the planet.The only exception to the above statement is if there is a very significant tidal interaction which could fling the dino off due to a very rapid change in trajectory.  This is unlikely, the earth would be disrupted first. Posted by silylene</DIV>Probably not, the mass of a dinosaur is much lower than the planet. In this case both will have the same velocity change, but not momentum which determines the applied force. Let's take the example of a car. A coffee cup is sitting on a car floor moving at 60mph. At this point the cup is moving because of inertia and small friction. If the brake is pressed suddenly, the decelerating force from the brake overcomes the frictional force on the cup and the cup moves. In earth-dinosaur case, the force holding the dino is gravitational force from the earth (and  a little amount from the traveling object). When the space object very quickly flies by, the sharp decelerating force on earth will easily overcome small holding gravitational force.  You may argue  how much deceleration would it require to obtain a velocity exactly equal to or a little less or a little higher than 25000mph. If motion and inertia are true as we know them, then this should happen. Btw, your info on dinosaurs are interesting, my dino-IQ is very low. A second pass before being ejected from the system could also solve that nasty... what about the animals on the other side of the planet? [BrianSlee] Here you go. A second pass. Why didn't I think of that. The first pass can eject all dinos and other animals with larger mass and derail the earth from its orbit, and the second pass can put the earth back into its original or near origianl orbit. All depends on from what angle the space object approaches earth relative to its orbit around the sun.  For the 'other side' problem, do we really know how dinosaurs populated the lands 50 to 75 millions years ago? Were they concentrated over a couple of continents or the entire planet?  We can rule out migration because dinos were not smart enough to cross the oceans. (May be Silylene can answer this). Birds survival, as a poster pointed out, also makes sense.One other thing I need to correct. It occured to me the direction of space object shown by an arrow in the first diagram in my original post should be in opposite direction.  The object should move out of the elliptical orbit not into it. In that case the space object can slow the earth and drag a little to a higher orbit which will suit the new lower speed. Again I'm not saying this event definitely took place. It is more difficult to justify this event on a planet that is supporting life. But this type of event can be used to explain how can the orbit of a planet quickly change, not over a time of million/billion years.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Earth is Boring </div>

silylene old · Jul 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Probably not, the mass of a dinosaur is much lower than the planet. In this case both will have the same velocity change, but not momentum which determines the applied force. Let's take the example of a car. A coffee cup is sitting on a car floor moving at 60mph. At this point the cup is moving because of inertia and small friction. If the brake is pressed suddenly, the decelerating force from the brake overcomes the frictional force on the cup and the cup moves. In earth-dinosaur case, the force holding the dino is gravitational force from the earth (and  a little amount from the traveling object). When the space object very quickly flies by, the sharp decelerating force on earth will easily overcome small holding gravitational force.  You may argue  how much deceleration would it require to obtain a velocity exactly equal to or a little less or a little higher than 25000mph. If motion and inertia are true as we know them, then this should happen. Btw, your info on dinosaurs are interesting, my dino-IQ is very low.Posted by emperor_of_localgroup</DIV>Sorry, but I am afraid this is a bad analogy, because the braking force is being applied to the car, but not the cup.  That is why the cup continues its forward momentum.In the dino case however, the exact same degree of braking force is being gravitationally applied to both the earth and the dinos (relative to their individual masses).  Thus the dinos can't fling off.  Trust me here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

emperor_of_localgroup · Jul 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Sorry, but I am afraid this is a bad analogy, because the braking force is being applied to the car, but not the cup.  That is why the cup continues its forward momentum.In the dino case however, the exact same degree of braking force is being gravitationally applied to both the earth and the dinos (relative to their individual masses).  Thus the dinos can't fling off.  Trust me here. Posted by silylene</DIV>Well, you are somewhat correct, and thanks for brining in space object's force on dinosaurs to my attention. The event will not be as dramatic as I described before, but pigs will still fly, figuratively and literally. The dinosaurs will not be hurled into deep space but they will be thrown into air to different heights depending on their locations. Refering to my new sketch, <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/11/801915e3-4a53-44a1-ab87-3a149f22d437.Medium.gif" alt="" />Dino A will not move and stay with earth, dino B will be thown into air to a moderate height, dino C will be thrown to the highest  height of all 3. This all will happen because of their relative distance from the traveling space object. Here are some numbers I calculated. Assuming in all cases, earth speed is suddenly  reduced by 25000mph by an earth size space object:a) If d=0, surafe to surface distance = 0, then dino C will have a speed change of 11111mph, not 25000mph.This scenario is virtually impossible, but we happen to believe many freaky things in  the universe. b) If d=R, surface to surface distance = earth radius, then C will have a speed change of  14063mph. Note that higher the speed change, the less height it will be thrown into air to. For a change of 25000mph, i'll stay with the earth.c) At d=R, for dino C to gain a speed equal to escape velocity, the earth speed must be reduced by 50000mph, in other worlds, virtually impossible. The change in speed of  earth and objects on earth heavily depends on the mass and distance of the traveling object. It's easier plot graphs with varying mass, distance and time using Microsoft Excel and then pick the most reasonable values.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Earth is Boring </div>

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Hilarious Possible Cause of Dinosaur Extinction

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