Hydrogen and water on the moon?

kelvinzero · Nov 8, 2008

Hurry up and find something impressive!

I realise that the indian lunar orbiter arriving at the moon this weekend will be there a while but I just couldnt wait.We know there is hydrogen in some form but it seems the evidence is against actual surface ice. Is there anything else we know yet?Another question: There is a link in the middle about more water being found in volcanic samples than expected. Is there any possibility that ice at the poles leaked up from beneath and froze? -------------------------------Below is a bunch of popular articles roughly ordered by date.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_ice Space.com article from 6 march 06.http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060306_lunar_ice.htmlArticle from Paul Spudis, November 6, 2006. Fairly pro the evidence of ice on the moonhttp://www.thespacereview.com/article/740/1You can google more about Paul yourself, but here is his blog http://spudislunarresources.blogspot.com/ . It will be interesting to see what he says about Chandrayaan results.Evidence of water in volcanic glass from Apollo samples. "Based on the amount of hydrogen found in the pebbles, scientists estimated the lunar magma contained 260 to 745 parts per million of water, similar to what is found in the Earth’s upper mantle."http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/10/science/sci-moon10No ice skating on the moon, it turns out. (no exposed ice observed by the japanese lunar explorer which actually got a look into the craters.). The Space.com article that of course everyone here read

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/081023-no-moon-ice.html(new addition 18/jan/09)MiniSar starting up.http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090116-chandrayaan-moon-ice.html(new addition Feb/09)Thread on the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter started by MeteorWayne

3488 · Nov 8, 2008

Hi kelvinzero,Excellent post, fascinating thread started here. You are correct, the Japanese Kaguya / Selene has failed to find any real evidence of exposed ice in the shadowed polar craters at either pole.Shackelton South Pole Crater. Kaguya /Selene, using ultra sensitive night vision exploiting the very little scattered light.Large image. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/4/8dec58ea-2b51-4e33-84b3-6649562f5035.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  As aobe, the floor of Shackelton South polar crater. Several tiny craters are seen on Shackelton's permanently shadowed floor. The surface temperature of the crop is similar to Neptune's Triton & is thus one of the coldest places seen up close by mankind. Large Image. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/7/19ed914d-76b0-410b-97a9-3c7be317539f.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Difficult to say for sure that ice des not exist at all.However the hydrogen conentrations can by expained by the hydrogen from the sun slowing down over the cryonically cold terrain (temperature in the permanently shadowed craters is about what -235 C or about the same os Neptune's moon Triton.The hydrogen as it slows down, causes a 'traffic jam' as faster hydrogen rams into it creating a concentration. Once past it creates a bit of a tail that disperses. Also another potential kicker is that the lunar maria & far side basins may represent the original lunar equator. If true, than the location of the rotational poles have shifted approx 40 degrees  (the southern one is now well on the near side, the north well on the far side now) That means, that the original poles are not at latitues approx 50 deg N & S respectively, still very far from the equator  (approx London UK, Calgary, Canada N, Falkland Islands S), but they do get full sunlight. If tihs did happen, than timing of said event would be useful.Perhaps something similar regarding hydrogen polar concentrations from the Sun is happenning at the poles of Mercury & 1 Ceres? Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

baulten · Nov 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>However the hydrogen conentrations can by expained by the hydrogen from the sun slowing down over the cryonically cold terrain (temperature in the permanently shadowed craters is about what -235 C or about the same os Neptune's moon Triton.The hydrogen as it slows down, causes a 'traffic jam' as faster hydrogen rams into it creating a concentration. Once past it creates a bit of a tail that disperses. Posted by 3488</DIV>Why would the hydrogen lose energy and cool down over the lunar poles?  A vacuum is a very good insulator... shouldn't the extreme cold have very little effect overall?  Or is it just enough to build up over time?

3488 · Nov 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Why would the hydrogen lose energy and cool down over the lunar poles?  A vacuum is a very good insulator... shouldn't the extreme cold have very little effect overall?  Or is it just enough to build up over time? Posted by baulten</DIV>Hi baulten,I would agree, the vacuum is a very good insulator as only heat loss through radiation can occur. However, the extreme cold is enough to cause the hydrogen to slow, creating a slight concentration of said hydrogen, which may have caused some scientists to jump the gun saying water ice has been found, when in fact it does not exist in this case, according to this new evidence.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Nov 8, 2008

If not as water ice or hydrates, how else would such levels of hydrogen occur?Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

kelvinzero · Nov 8, 2008

Hi 3488,Are you saying the hydrogen may not be trapped through chemical means but just slow moving hydrogen atoms or molecules bouncing around in the crater and also between all the gaps in the regolith?How much do we know about the actual quantity of hydrogen at the location? Could hydrogen be present in this form yet still in useful quantities? I have wondered before whether volatiles could exist in tiny amounts bouncing around in the gaps in the regolith, but able to be 'sucked' out by creating an electric potential between two very distant tubes into the regolith. I mean, if you can get a potential between two distant points it has to equalise some way or other, and riding on lightweight ions sounds easier than conducting through rock that is similar to mashed up glass.

franontanaya · Nov 9, 2008

Actually, I'd expect anything in permanent darkness to be buried by lunar dust.I remember reading that charged dust moves through the lunar terminator from the day to the night. Same process would make craters in permanent darkness some sort of lunar dust bins, where dust enters but never leaves. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Nov 10, 2008

I wuld expect regolith with only a few percent water to be indistinguishable from dry regolith, at least visually.I have read the paper today and, regardless of whether they are right or not, it was still a very impressibe piece of work by the Kaguya team. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Nov 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I wuld expect regolith with only a few percent water to be indistinguishable from dry regolith, at least visually.I have read the paper today and, regardless of whether they are right or not, it was still a very impressibe piece of work by the Kaguya team. Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon,I too do not know whether or not ice could have been detected visually in the low light images of the interior of the lunar south pole Shackleton Crater. I wonder though, if that conclusion was reached by predicted & actual light scattering & reflection from within the cryonically cold dark interior of the crater? Obviously some sunlight, a tiny amount is being reflected off the upper rim, that does catch the very low Sun & into the shadowed crater, which using long exposure & highest sensitivites of the camera (I assume the Terrain Camera rather than the HDTV, though I do not know).If there was ice present, perhaps the crater floor would appear brighter with lower contrast than dry regolith, with perhaps differing polarization properties????? Just throwing a bone there, but do not know for sure without more information.Anyway, it is an amazing piece of work by the Kaguya / Selene team as you say, absolutely stunning actually. I was quite taken by it, as I did not expect ever to see the interior of Shackleton Crater till high resolution radar images were obtained during some future mission.MESSENGER at Mercury & DAWN at 1 Ceres & 4 Vesta could try this method to see into polar craters at their respective targets? Just a thought & one I will raise with the mission teams concerned.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

h2ouniverse · Nov 15, 2008

just brainstorming with two extreme/opposite considerations:1) Too low thermal stability in time: it is believed that the spin axis is not stable enough over few hundreds of thousand years. So the bottom of Shackleton has probably been sunlit in the last million years (under grazing light though), vaporizing surface volatiles, burrying potential surviving ices below regolith and/or hydrating the minerals (like the clays on Ceres)2) Too high thermal stability in time: temperatures as low as 40K are expected. Bodies in the outer system with such surface temperatures over very long periods (ie bodies with high perihelion and low atm activity unlike Pluto) tend to present little water ice signature. Not because there is no water ice. But because their surface tends to be covered by volatiles with lower sublimation temperatures (CH4, N2, tholins). Could it be that the H in the very top surface is more in the form of frozen methane or organic compounds? And a middle ground: water ice may be too stable (almost no sublimation below say 130K), and other hydrogenated volatiles may undergo some cycling depending on minor spin axis variations, re-depositing on the cold areas and masking H2O. However, no sign of Iapetus-like thermal segregation... HmmmLet's see when the ejecta of the impactors are analyzed!

kelvinzero · Dec 25, 2008

Just bumping this thread to ask if anyone knows when we are likely to get an update on this question. For example when are we likely to get results from Mini Sar on Chandrayaan-1? http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/25/stories/2008102556281100.htm(edit)Found this link which mentions "several months"http://www.moondaily.com/reports/Raytheon_Chandrayaan_1_Sensor_Successfully_Activated_999.html"Operational data retrieval will begin several months after initial calibration to allow other on-board optical payloads to take advantage of favorable solar illumination conditions during the early phase of the program."

hal9891 · Dec 25, 2008

Could the hydrogen that was detected be in hydrocarbon (methane, ethane, etc.) ice instead of water ice? The comets that this hydrogen is supposed to originate from consist from hydrocarbon ice as well as water ice.It seems to me that methane ice would actually be more useful than water ice, because less energy is required to extract hydrogen from methane than from water (here on earth we get hydrogen from methane), and we are going to extract oxygen from regolith anyway, so making water wouldn't be a problem and as a bonus we would get lots of carbon, which is scarce on moon, and we could use it to make carbon nanotubes, diamondoind, etc.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div style="text-align:center">"I predict that within 100 years computers will be twice as powerful, 10000 times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe will own them" </div> </div>

dragon04 · Dec 26, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Could the hydrogen that was detected be in hydrocarbon (methane, ethane, etc.) ice instead of water ice? The comets that this hydrogen is supposed to originate from consist from hydrocarbon ice as well as water ice.It seems to me that methane ice would actually be more useful than water ice, because less energy is required to extract hydrogen from methane than from water (here on earth we get hydrogen from methane), and we are going to extract oxygen from regolith anyway, so making water wouldn't be a problem and as a bonus we would get lots of carbon, which is scarce on moon, and we could use it to make carbon nanotubes, diamondoind, etc.  Posted by hal9891</DIV>I prefer to ask the question of..... "What's the easiest way to account for hydrogen being detected on the Moon?". The answer probably lies there. Methane ice works great in the outer solar system, but the Moon gets cooked at 280 degrees (or so) F and has been over the last 3 billion (or so) years after it cooled down post-formation. I should think that "ethane ice" would have been boiled off long, long ago if it could have ever even formed in the first place. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!". </div>

kelvinzero · Dec 26, 2008

Hi Dragon,The answer probably lies in the permanently shadowed craters of the lunar poles. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />The two competing theories seem to be water from comets and hydrogen from solar winds. Everyone seems to agree that there is a higher density of hydrogen at the poles and apparently, in some permanently shadowed craters there the temperature never exceeds -173C.Im finding it hard to get a bead on exactly what is else is agreed on.Here is a recent article, though I could not spot what the new research was exactly.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081217192743.htm

kelvinzero · Jan 17, 2009

Just adding a new link from space.com. MiniSar starting up.http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090116-chandrayaan-moon-ice.html

kelvinzero · Sep 18, 2009

Although there are other threads covering this topic, Im just bumping this one because it has some nice collected links, IMO anyway.

And to add a new one:

7/september/2009:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/0 ... mages.html

Also worth reviewing the recent Indian probe which stopped functioning recently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1

There is already a thread on the LRO/LCROSS mission, so that would probably be a better place to discuss this.

(edit)
Normally I would have edited these links into the 'history' in the original post, but the text seems to be corrupted when I go to edit it. (missing return characters for starters)

marsbug · Sep 19, 2009

There are some abstracts on this, not conclusive but supportative of the water hypothesis, on the website for DPS 2009:
I can't get the direct link to work so I'm ypu'll have to go through this one on unmanned spacelight.com:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/inde ... topic=6177

The links there seem pretty good. Once you're onto the DPS website go to 'browse', then to 'moon' under session catagory, then to 'Special Session.02.Moon Mineralogy Mapper First Results and Lunar Volatiles'. There are relavant and interesting abstracts.

As far as the hydrogen signal coming from areas that recieve sunlight goes- I can't find the reference but I've read somewhere that the temperature a meter or so below the surface at the poles is pedicted to be similar to whats been measured for the craters of eternal darkness. That makes me think that some of the hydrogen signal could be coming from just beneath the surface, even where the surface gets some sun.

If you go over to BAUT forum and read this thread on the briefing:

http://www.bautforum.com/space-explorat ... -17-a.html

About halfway down it mentions that the LAMP sensor found some inconclusive suggestions of frost; the moons teasing us!
I can't wait for some definitive answers!

kelvinzero · May 15, 2010

Well now of course we know there is lots of hydrogen, and in fact ice at the lunar poles.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROS ... sults.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/w ... 00301.html
http://news.discovery.com/space/lunar-m ... locks.html

I am really just bumping this thread to ask what progress since and what future progress can we expect. There were hints that certain hydrocarbons eg alcohols were also going to be confirmed but I havent heard anything since.

A bit disappointing really. All that buildup and then no real strident post discovery discussion from the experts here that I was hoping for. Water:tick. Next! No presidential address about this new momentous find. A little inopportune I guess

There is some mention in the budget of lunar precursor missions and ISRU, but it is all very quiet. With all the fuss about cancelling constellation I havent heard anyone with a voice that matters say this is really important.

Hydrogen and water on the moon?

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