Is it possible the negative virtual graviton particle seperation that occurs at the event horizon of

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primordial

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On page 134 of Mr. Hawking describes his concept on virtual Particles in his book (The Illustrated, A Brief History Of Time). Could there be a connection in the manner the Higgs boson interacts with the graviton and the anti-graviton, that could explain the effect of Dark Matter? Just think about it.
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>On page 134 of Mr. Hawking describes his concept on virtual Particles in his book (The Illustrated, A Brief History Of Time). Could there be a connection in the manner the Higgs boson interacts with the graviton and the anti-graviton, that could explain the effect of Dark Matter? Just think about it. <br />Posted by primordial</DIV></p><p>No.</p><p>Dark matter is in large part an add-on to standard cosmology to provide a source for extra gravity, beyond what is explainable with the matter that is actually observed, to hold together spiral galaxies and local groups given observed rotational speeds.&nbsp; The necessary dark matter, if it exists, needs to be concentrated in the outer portions of the galaxies and between the galaxies in local groups.&nbsp; It is believed that massive black holes may exist in the centers of galaxies. but that is not where the dark matter is needed.</p><p>In addition, the existence of gravitons has only been speculated.&nbsp; No one knows&nbsp; how a graviton would interact with any other elementary particle.&nbsp; We do not have a viable theory of quantum gravity. and that&nbsp;is necessary to make sense of a graviton.</p><p>My undestanding of Hawking radiation involves virtual particles, but not necessarily gravitons.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>On page 134 of Mr. Hawking describes his concept on virtual Particles in his book (The Illustrated, A Brief History Of Time). Could there be a connection in the manner the Higgs boson interacts with the graviton and the anti-graviton, that could explain the effect of Dark Matter? Just think about it. <br /> Posted by primordial</DIV></p><p>I thought about it, but not sure I can really make a statement on it.&nbsp; You are describing four things that have never been detected.&nbsp; (I assume virtual particles are in reference to Hawking Radiation.)&nbsp; Maybe you could elaborate on your train of thought?&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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primordial

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>No.Dark matter is in large part an add-on to standard cosmology to provide a source for extra gravity, beyond what is explainable with the matter that is actually observed, to hold together spiral galaxies and local groups given observed rotational speeds.&nbsp; The necessary dark matter, if it exists, needs to be concentrated in the outer portions of the galaxies and between the galaxies in local groups.&nbsp; It is believed that massive black holes may exist in the centers of galaxies. but that is not where the dark matter is needed.In addition, the existence of gravitons has only been speculated.&nbsp; No one knows&nbsp; how a graviton would interact with any other elementary particle.&nbsp; We do not have a viable theory of quantum gravity. and that&nbsp;is necessary to make sense of a graviton.My undestanding of Hawking radiation involves virtual particles, but not necessarily gravitons. <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV> Thank you for your answer DrRocket, and you could be very right.<br />
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Thank you for your answer DrRocket, and you could be very right. <br /> Posted by primordial</DIV></p><p>Heh... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /></p><p>I just realized the bulk of your question was in the thread title.&nbsp; I thought DrRocket's answer was a bit strange, but now makes sense having recognized the headline.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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primordial

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I thought about it, but not sure I can really make a statement on it.&nbsp; You are describing four things that have never been detected.&nbsp; (I assume virtual particles are in reference to Hawking Radiation.)&nbsp; Maybe you could elaborate on your train of thought?&nbsp; <br />Posted by derekmcd</DIV><br />Yes, it is about Mr. Hawking's concept of virtual particle pair production and in the book he explains the uncertainty principle and now I will quote" One can think of these fluctuations as pairs of particles of light or gravity that appear together at some time, move apart, and then come together again and annihilate each other (Fig 7.7). These particles are virtual particles like the particles that carry the gravitational force of the sun : unlike real particles, they cannot be observed directly with a particle detector, however, their indirect effects, such as small changes in the energy of electron orbits in atoms, can be measured and agree with the theoretical predictions to a remarkable degree of accuracy." end of quote.<br />My question is if Mr. Hawking can understand the existance of the black hole interacting with the particle pair(graviton and anti-graviton)&nbsp;that carries the gravitational interaction, could it be possible, because of the concentration of gravity at the black hole, and the fact that gravity can escape the black hole, where the photon can't, plus the production of these newly formed anti-gravitational particles have an effect on the way gravity is distributed in a macro system with a black hole core?
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yes, it is about Mr. Hawking's concept of virtual particle pair production and in the book he explains the uncertainty principle and now I will quote" One can think of these fluctuations as pairs of particles of light or gravity that appear together at some time, move apart, and then come together again and annihilate each other (Fig 7.7). These particles are virtual particles like the particles that carry the gravitational force of the sun : unlike real particles, they cannot be observed directly with a particle detector, however, their indirect effects, such as small changes in the energy of electron orbits in atoms, can be measured and agree with the theoretical predictions to a remarkable degree of accuracy." end of quote.My question is if Mr. Hawking can understand the existance of the black hole interacting with the particle pair(graviton and anti-graviton)&nbsp;that carries the gravitational interaction, could it be possible, because of the concentration of gravity at the black hole, and the fact that gravity can escape the black hole, where the photon can't, plus the production of these newly formed anti-gravitational particles have an effect on the way gravity is distributed in a macro system with a black hole core? <br /> Posted by primordial</DIV></p><p>Like DrRocket pointed out, the Graviton is hypothetical.&nbsp; If it did exist, it would be massless and have no charge similar to a photon.&nbsp; I imagine it would also be an elementary particle.&nbsp; I doubt there could be such a thing as an anti-graviton as it is its own quanta.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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primordial

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Like DrRocket pointed out, the Graviton is hypothetical.&nbsp; If it did exist, it would be massless and have no charge similar to a photon.&nbsp; I imagine it would also be an elementary particle.&nbsp; I doubt there could be such a thing as an anti-graviton as it is its own quanta. <br />Posted by derekmcd</DIV><br />Thank you for your answer. I was just wondering if there could be something to it, after I saw where some astronomers said the total mass of&nbsp;a galaxy&nbsp;is directly proportional to the&nbsp;mass of the black hole at its core, and did not include the Dark matter in the eqaution,&nbsp;they sort of thought as I did, this is strange. Also why doesn't the dark matter of our solar system have an effect on our outter planets, and the other exoplanets of other stars. Like I said I was just wondering. Thanks again.
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Also why doesn't the dark matter of our solar system have an effect on our outter planets, and the other exoplanets of other stars. Like I said I was just wondering. Thanks again. <br /> Posted by primordial</DIV></p><p>It probably does have an effect, though it is statistically insignificant as to be immeasureable with current technologies at such small scales within a stellar system.&nbsp; It's really only recognized to have a significant effect at galactic scales. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>... Also why doesn't the dark matter of our solar system have an effect on our outter planets, and the other exoplanets of other stars. Like I said I was just wondering. Thanks again. <br />Posted by primordial</DIV></p><p>I am unaware of any suggestion that any appreciable amount of dark matter exists within the solar system.&nbsp; Dark matter is a bit mysterious, hence the name.&nbsp; The hypothesis is that it is largely distributed on the outer edges of galaxies and not within the central core.&nbsp; We don't evern know that it does exist.&nbsp; <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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primordial

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I am unaware of any suggestion that any appreciable amount of dark matter exists within the solar system.&nbsp; Dark matter is a bit mysterious, hence the name.&nbsp; The hypothesis is that it is largely distributed on the outer edges of galaxies and not within the central core.&nbsp; We don't evern know that it does exist.&nbsp; <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV> Thanks for the information, I was unaware it was largely distributed on the outer edges of galaxies.&nbsp; I only knew it was about 5.75 times more abundant than visible matter, so their must be a large cloud of dark matter around our galaxy's edge, then may be we should look at some of the exoplanets at the outter edge of our galaxy.<br />
 
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MeteorWayne

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Thanks for the information, I was unaware it was largely distributed on the outer edges of galaxies.&nbsp; I only knew it was about 5.75 times more abundant than visible matter, so their must be a large cloud of dark matter around our galaxy's edge, then may be we should look at some of the exoplanets at the outter edge of our galaxy. <br />Posted by primordial</DIV><br /><br />I don't think that's correct. Whatever&nbsp;dark matter&nbsp;is (if it exists), it is distributed throughout the galaxy. It's just that at the scale of the solar system, the gravitation of baryonic (normal) matter overwhelms any measurable effect.</p><p>&nbsp;As far as exoplanets at the edge of the galaxy, so far we do not have the ability to detect exoplanets at such distances. We've only been able to search in our local neighborhood.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't think that's correct. Whatever&nbsp;dark matter&nbsp;is (if it exists), it is distributed throughout the galaxy. It's just that at the scale of the solar system, the gravitation of baryonic (normal) matter overwhelms any measurable effect.&nbsp;As far as exoplanets at the edge of the galaxy, so far we do not have the ability to detect exoplanets at such distances. We've only been able to search in our local neighborhood. <br />Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>My understanding is that dark matter in the galaxy is distributed in a spherical shell called a halo.&nbsp; I think that the halo is believed to overlap the visible matter, and extend well beyond it.&nbsp; I was under the impression that it did not extend to the&nbsp;core but I thnk&nbsp;that impression may be wrong, and the distribution may be spherical but not a shell.&nbsp;&nbsp; The&nbsp;papers that I found seem&nbsp;to&nbsp;imply belief in&nbsp;a density that it roughly constant from the galaxy center to a "core radius" and then drops of from there like the square of the radius, which would have dark matter at high density in the center of the galaxy.&nbsp; But there is plenty of debate.</p><p>The first of the articles below indicates that the old ideas (presumably the halo) about distribution of dark matter may be completely wrong.&nbsp; It also states that the Milky Way is considerably more massive that was previously thought and in fact more massive than the Andromeda galaxy -- a turnabout.</p><p>So, I think I stand corrected, but I don't know what the current concensus is or what the real answer may be.&nbsp; </p><p>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4679220.stm<br /><br />http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6235751.stm</p><p>http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2007/01/image/a/</p><p>http://web.mit.edu/~redingtn/www/netadv/specr/012/node7.html</p><p>http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?2004MNRAS.351..903G&amp;data_type=PDF_HIGH&amp;whole_paper=YES&amp;type=PRINTER&amp;filetype=.pdf</p><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter_halo</p><p>http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/ast99/ast99160.htm</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

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<p>Dr Rocket,</p><p>I too am not sure of the status of investigations of the distribution. After all, until particles that create the mass are found, dark matter is just a placeholder for the observed gravitational effects. I wasn't aware that there was rarefaction or concentration toward the cores of galaxies, but if I understand the effect correctly, it would be much harder to determine that with so much normal matter present.</p><p>This certainly is one question I hope gets answered before I become part of the inanimate dust of the galaxy :)</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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