Is it time for moon laws? 1st private lunar landing emphasizes the need for new policy

[Admin]

Moon landings will continue to speckle humanity's future, and scientists are urging discussions of lunar ethics and policy.

Is it time for moon laws? 1st private lunar landing emphasizes the need for new policy : Read more

 

[Manix]

So we ruin our planet, then decide that other heavenly bodies are now owned by us (well the governments) and should have laws. How about get your own affairs in order and stop worrying about space. WHEN a government base is built on the moon or Mars, THEN consider laws for those bases and ONLY those bases. I feel if someone can get into space, then good for them. We start with laws and it becomes ownership. And we know how that goes

 

[Chumgrinder]

"Is it time for lunar law?"

Heavens, quell your jerking knee.

Men fight for freedom; then they begin to accumulate laws to take it away from themselves.
--THOMAS JEFFERSON

 

[BrianSchmidt]

"Is it time for lunar law?"

Heavens, quell your jerking knee.

Men fight for freedom; then they begin to accumulate laws to take it away from themselves.
--THOMAS JEFFERSON

Looks like Jefferson didn't say that, it was from someone else. (https://www.quotegarden.com/freedom.html). Personally I like the idea that we can trend towards a Star Trek style of limited universal government.

 

[Atlan0001]

"Is it time for lunar law?"

Heavens, quell your jerking knee.

Men fight for freedom; then they begin to accumulate laws to take it away from themselves.
--THOMAS JEFFERSON

A frontier with too many laws, too many controls, too tyrannical, too anarchic, too Orwellian bureaucratic, is no expansionist frontier opening at all! The Outer Space Treaty! The Moon Treaty (though officially unratified by the U. S. Senate)! And we have no breakout whatsoever to Space (the Space Frontier being on the other side of an 'Iron Curtain' state we of Earth are on the wrong side of)!
-------------------------

"A nation of too many laws is lawless" (an anarchy of tyrannies, of chains, without law). -- Cicero.

"We both love the people, but you love them as infants (adult children) whom you are afraid to trust without nurses (Alpha-elites), and I as adults whom I freely leave to self-government." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a French aristocrat friend just prior to the French Revolution.

 

[Manix]

"Is it time for lunar law?"

Heavens, quell your jerking knee.

Men fight for freedom; then they begin to accumulate laws to take it away from themselves.
--THOMAS JEFFERSON

Jerking knees? Better jerking knees than see no evil. Making laws is the first step to taking control later down the road. Space should be free for all, it's plenty big enough.

 

[Atlan0001]

Will Durant, probably the most famous chronicler of civilization with his eleven-volume 'The Story of Civilization' and short summary in the 'Lessons of History' (all of which I've had for several decades well read several times over) said that the biggest difference between 'Civilization' (actually 'Frontier Civilization') and 'Tribal Savagery' (aka 'Noble Savagery') is that savagery actually has many more rules ruling its energy-less stagnant treadmill than civilization does governing its energetic infrastructure of dynamism. The difference between ADULT CHILDREN in extended CHILDHOOD (like William Golding's 'Lord of the Flies' and/or Thomas Jefferson's representation in a letter to his French aristocrat friend prior to the terrors of the French Revolution) on the one hand and many more self-controlled ADULTS in a more mature framework of ADULTHOOD on the other hand.

Massively enclosed closed systematic negative energies (thus inward division (tribal savagery)).
Opening system open systematic frontier and division outward instead of inward producing greater unities and unity, a greater energy of structure and infrastructure (frontier civilization), overall.

Damnit! I can't get away locally from the nonlocal comparable look of a more binding energy in an "accelerating expansion" outward of the frontier universe! LESS CONTROL (Cicero, Thomas Jefferson, Will Durant.... The accelerating expansion of the universe....) BUT IN FEWER CONTROLS PRODUCING AN EXPANDING MORE BINDING ENERGY (STRONG (NUCLEAR) BINDING FORCE?!?!)!!!!

 

[Unclear Engineer]

So you guys who want "no rules" would be fine with Musk claiming the Moon for SpaceX, and denying landing rights to all others? Not that I expect he would do that, but then there are others who would if they could.

 

[Manix]

So you guys who want "no rules" would be fine with Musk claiming the Moon for SpaceX, and denying landing rights to all others? Not that I expect he would do that, but then there are others who would if they could.

If Musk claims the Moon, then he is making rules is he not? AND for your argument, if Musk can get to the moon before anyone else, then why does he not have the same rights to it as say the US or China or Russia? I say let it be that no one can own the moon or any other celestial body, period.

 

[Manix]

Will Durant, probably the most famous chronicler of civilization with his eleven-volume 'The Story of Civilization' and short summary in the 'Lessons of History' (all of which I've had for several decades well read several times over) said that the biggest difference between 'Civilization' (actually 'Frontier Civilization') and 'Tribal Savagery' (aka 'Noble Savagery') is that savagery actually has many more rules ruling its energy-less stagnant treadmill than civilization does governing its energetic infrastructure of dynamism. The difference between ADULT CHILDREN in extended CHILDHOOD (like William Golding's 'Lord of the Flies' and/or Thomas Jefferson's representation in a letter to his French aristocrat friend prior to the terrors of the French Revolution) on the one hand and many more self-controlled ADULTS in a more mature framework of ADULTHOOD on the other hand.

Massively enclosed closed systematic negative energies (thus inward division (tribal savagery)).
Opening system open systematic frontier and division outward instead of inward producing greater unities and unity, a greater energy of structure and infrastructure (frontier civilization), overall.

Damnit! I can't get away locally from the nonlocal comparable look of a more binding energy in an "accelerating expansion" outward of the frontier universe! LESS CONTROL (Cicero, Thomas Jefferson, Will Durant.... The accelerating expansion of the universe....) BUT IN FEWER CONTROLS PRODUCING AN EXPANDING MORE BINDING ENERGY (STRONG (NUCLEAR) BINDING FORCE?!?!)!!!!

It's highly unlikely to become a Lord of the Flies or Wild West situation in space. The technology to actually get out there and settle would be far, far greater than a time when a horse and a six shooter did the trick. However when people start making rules for the masses, it becomes a way to control the masses. You can call it lawlessness or whatever, but when does it stop? We meet another civilization out there and "decide" they are invading our region of space? I think it is better we study the universe instead of trying to control the universe and making rules for outer space is the start of that.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

You "no rules" folks seem highly confused about what a rule really is. Somebody claiming the Moon is not an agreed-upon rule by which others would abide, it is just the use of power to control the Moon. Multiple entities could "claim" the Moon - and fight wars to see whose claim could be enforced and whose would just be in vain.

But, much more likely, there would be various groups doing things on the Moon that could disrupt what others want to do on the Moon. Much better if everybody can agree on a set of rules that help keep the Moon open to beneficial activities and limits destructive activities. We just need to think through what those are. Not much different than here on Earth, where "no rules" thinkers want to pollute and endanger for maximum profit, at the uncompensated expense of all others.

 

[Atlan0001]

"They make a desert and call it peace!"

 

[Manix]

You "no rules" folks seem highly confused about what a rule really is. Somebody claiming the Moon is not an agreed-upon rule by which others would abide, it is just the use of power to control the Moon. Multiple entities could "claim" the Moon - and fight wars to see whose claim could be enforced and whose would just be in vain.

But, much more likely, there would be various groups doing things on the Moon that could disrupt what others want to do on the Moon. Much better if everybody can agree on a set of rules that help keep the Moon open to beneficial activities and limits destructive activities. We just need to think through what those are. Not much different than here on Earth, where "no rules" thinkers want to pollute and endanger for maximum profit, at the uncompensated expense of all others.

The problem with a set of rules as you call it, is those in power create those rules, in other words what benefits them, not all humanity or down the road in the future other species we may encounter out there. It becomes ownership. IF you want a rule it is that NO ONE can own any part of space. There's your rule. Because sooner of later you'll need a permit here to mine here or a permit there to put a station there. We have too many talking heads now that fight on ONE planet never mind the endlessness of space.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

What I am suggesting is more along the lines of agreements among all the "powers" that can actually get to the Moon and might potentially get in each other's way, degrading the opportunities for all. Things like zones that could be kept clear of EM emissions in certain frequencies so as to facilitate astronomy.

As for mining, etc., I think we already know how destructive that has been on Earth. So, yes, it seems like a good idea to not have just anybody that can reach an asteroid be able to do whatever they want with it, without considering such things as scientific investigations being conducted before disruptions.

And, what about some company deciding to move a large asteroid into LEO "on the cheap" and then going "Oops, sorry about that, Paris!" when it "accidentally" goes off course and actually hits our planet?

"Anything goes" is not necessarily even safe for people who never get involved in the space industries.

 

[Questioner]

Moon laws are lunacy. (humor)

(philosophic)
Laws are written and imposed by people with the violent conviction in their supremacy.
Inevitably they are imposed selectively in a checkered manner.
And it is the fundamental violence that determines who's biases are the letter & execution of the 'law'.

Societies include a lot of passive complicity in what carries the day.
How much do we care when things are a little wrong, or more wrong or absolutely wrong?

How much of our genetics determine the order of the day?

A rational intellectual belief system is the only one that can invalidate itself. (irony)

Technology becomes deadly serious in space.
What you know that a competitor doesn't may be the difference between life and death.

Covet your knowledge, 'legality' be damned.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

Covet your knowledge, 'legality' be damned.

So, do you draw the line at criminal negligence, or murder, or no line at all?

There are even treaties for conduct on the oceans on Earth, outside of national territories. They are somewhat archaic, now, in some respects, but they are still expected to be enforced by all nations who have ratified the treaty. Modifications can be made, as with any treaty.

That seems like a much better approach than "legality be damned" or "anything goes".

 

[Atlan0001]

Some people are in a hurry to make humans extinct . . . or at least civilization extinct, as Stephen Hawking (humans extinct) and George Orwell (Civilization extinct) predict via atom-like smash made -- evolved -- matter humanity (+) / antimatter humanity (-) (nothing then different except charge)! The instrument being countless imprisoning closed systemic 'Iron Curtain' bubbles (the instrument being 'Alpha Elite' commune Utopia ('Alpha Elite' commune Dystopia)).

(Fasces : bundle of rods, ancient Roman badge of magisterial authority.
Fascism : Authority : authoritarianism : total authoritarianism.
Communism : Rule by Centralized Committees : All for One! : One for All!
Communist : Authority : authoritarianism : total authoritarianism.
Commune : Select 'Alpha Elite' centralized committees' rule pyramiding to an apex centrality in an 'Alpha Elite' Fascist autocrat and aristocracy of 'Alpha Elite' Fascism.
Earth Utopia (Earth Dystopia).
Closed World Systemic vulnerable master link bubble and within the same vulnerability, countless invincible / invulnerable component Iron Curtain bubbles (tyrannies, anarchies, negative energies / entropies; "War of a thousand (a million, a billion, a trillion... society and economy bleeding to death) little cuts!")

Exodus (To go forth) : YOU will pay whatever the price to "Let my people go!" -- Moses (or at least Charlton Heston acting the part in the epic 'Ten Commandments').

 

[Questioner]

One has live with oneself,
but we all have some good capacity to 'explain' or forgive our own failings/shortcomings.

The reality is if one can do things with no public evidence, 'laws' are powerless & basically meaningless.
Outer space will only amplify that reality.

Btw did you know there were serial killers in the pioneer days?

If we have a religious, ideological or survival 'mission' to do or accomplish we will ascribe no limits.

(Thank goodness I'm not a gasbag.)