Is Obama going to revive Energia?

[orionrider]

One thing in the Obama space plan is still unclear: how is he going to launch the thousands of tons of spacecraft and propellant in orbit? There is no time and no money to create a new heavy lift rocket, now that Ares V was cancelled. And anyway, Ares V would not have flown before 2020, too late for the 2025 shake-off asteroid mission.

What about the Energia/Vulkan rocket system?
http://www.k26.com/buran/Future/Mars/_e ... _mars.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia
The Vulkan rocket can put 175 to 200ton payload in orbit :shock:
It has a mass of more than 4,500,000 kg, about 10 million lbs!

All elements have already been flight-tested in 'Energia' configuration (100ton payload).
The RD170 engines on the Energia/Vulkan are well-known by US engineers because Lockheed-Martin selected a half-sized version, the RD-180, for their Atlas V rocket.
Boeing uses the Russian Zenith liquid-fuel boosters for its SeaLaunch rockets, so it is well-proven technology.
Energia/Vulkan is off-the-shelf technology waiting to be used. It would definitely solve many problems and fully integrate in the new 'international cooperation' policy...

Could President Obama plan to revive Energia?

Or do you have other ideas/facts about the 'asteroid and Mars' heavy launcher?

 

[Valcan]

One thing in the Obama space plan is still unclear: how is he going to launch the thousands of tons of spacecraft and propellant in orbit? There is no time and no money to create a new heavy lift rocket, now that Ares V was cancelled. And anyway, Ares V would not have flown before 2020, too late for the 2025 shake-off asteroid mission.

What about the Energia/Vulkan rocket system?
http://www.k26.com/buran/Future/Mars/_e ... _mars.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia
The Vulkan rocket can put 175 to 200ton payload in orbit :shock:
It has a mass of more than 4,500,000 kg, about 10 million lbs!

All elements have already been flight-tested in 'Energia' configuration (100ton payload).
The RD170 engines on the Energia/Vulkan are well-known by US engineers because Lockheed-Martin selected a half-sized version, the RD-180, for their Atlas V rocket.
Boeing uses the Russian Zenith liquid-fuel boosters for its SeaLaunch rockets, so it is well-proven technology.
Energia/Vulkan is off-the-shelf technology waiting to be used. It would definitely solve many problems and fully integrate in the new 'international cooperation' policy...

Could President Obama plan to revive Energia?

Or do you have other ideas/facts about the 'asteroid and Mars' heavy launcher?

Why would obama support a russian rocket company? That just might be enough to get the US manned space program truely cut.

Besides i dont see the russians being able to get that beasty up and running for atleast 10 to 12 yrs. By that time plenty of american companies could have come up with a better design for use and manufacture on our own soil.

 

[EarthlingX]

Why would obama support a russian rocket company? That just might be enough to get the US manned space program truely cut.

Besides i dont see the russians being able to get that beasty up and running for atleast 10 to 12 yrs. By that time plenty of american companies could have come up with a better design for use and manufacture on our own soil.

And that is without even mentioning the SDLV, which could fly in a couple of years, or Common Booster Core derived from either Delta or Atlas.

Russians will most likely go for a heavy launcher, if not for else, just to parry USA efforts, if that can be counted as a support

 

[orionrider]

i dont see the russians being able to get that beasty up and running for atleast 10 to 12 yrs.

Well, it IS ready. That's the point. The production of the boosters never stopped and the engines are still on the line. Only the middle structure would have to be produced again, that could be done in a mum of time.

Why would obama support a russian rocket company?

I never heard an American say that Bush supported Russian companies. Yet, before Obama's time, Boeing purchased Russian Zenith rockets and the engines on the Atlas rockets came from Russia. Does that make the Altas V a Russian rocket? Or Boeing a Russian company?
When you buy an IPhone, you say "it is my IPhone": it's not Chinese anymore! Why can't an American say 'It is an American Energia rocket'?

Patriotism is good, but sometimes you have to see things in a more realistic view. If Nasa can buy better and cheaper launchers abroad, they will be able to focus on the core business, like Science, mission control, Astronaut training, advanced sensors, launch infrastructure, etc.

 

[orionrider]

And that is without even mentioning the SDLV, which could fly in a couple of years

The only 'SDLV' I know of is the Ares V, and it has been suspended because it was impossible to complete it before 2020 with the budget proposed by the Bush administration. It could never have been profitable because there is no market for such a large launcher. Nasa would have bled to death to finance the development of a 'silver bullet' needed for just a few manned missions. The whole program was born of political lobbying, not common sense.

 

[EarthlingX]

And that is without even mentioning the SDLV, which could fly in a couple of years

The only 'SDLV' I know of is the Ares V, and it has been suspended because it was impossible to complete it before 2020 with the budget proposed by the Bush administration. It could never have been profitable because there is no market for such a large launcher. Nasa would have bled to death to finance the development of a 'silver bullet' needed for just a few manned missions. The whole program was born of political lobbying, not common sense.

Very true, except for the SDLV part. I posted a bit of info about SDLV here

 

[Valcan]

And that is without even mentioning the SDLV, which could fly in a couple of years

The only 'SDLV' I know of is the Ares V, and it has been suspended because it was impossible to complete it before 2020 with the budget proposed by the Bush administration. It could never have been profitable because there is no market for such a large launcher. Nasa would have bled to death to finance the development of a 'silver bullet' needed for just a few manned missions. The whole program was born of political lobbying, not common sense.

Think about it this way do you want to see this put in big letters on the front page of a news paper or on TV news?

"Obama cuts jobs from americans to buy russian rockets."

Theres that and the fact that the space industry is really one of the few things that we accell at when compared to the rest of the world. And we do it with stupid politicans and budget crisis all the time.
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"Patriotism is good, but sometimes you have to see things in a more realistic view. If Nasa can buy better and cheaper launchers abroad, they will be able to focus on the core business, like Science, mission control, Astronaut training, advanced sensors, launch infrastructure, etc."

Then russia decides we need to stop supporting a country that they want to control and oops whats that? Nope sorry cant deliever those rockets to you....

 

[orionrider]

Thanks EarthlingX, good reading

I think the problems with all shuttle-derived solutions is the SRB's. They are old technology, expensive to build and refurbish, and inherently unsafe. Liquid fueled is superior. Maybe they could build a hybrid stack, take the best of both?

the space industry is really one of the few things that we accell at when compared to the rest of the world

Then why would Lockheed-Martin use Russian engines? Why would Nasa pay Russia to build the first ISS module? Why would Boeing launch Zenith rockets? Why would Costa-Rica build the VASIMR engine?

Then russia decides we need to stop supporting a country that they want to control and oops whats that?

Virtually all electronics and most goods sold under a US brand actually come from Asia. 'Made in America' is a thing of the past. If Asian factories pull the plug, no more computers, no space probes, no radars, no toys for the kids,...
The global economy is fully interdependent: you need their stuff, they need your money. If you accept it from China, why not from Russia?

 

[Valcan]

Thanks EarthlingX, good reading

I think the problems with all shuttle-derived solutions is the SRB's. They are old technology, expensive to build and refurbish, and inherently unsafe. Liquid fueled is superior. Maybe they could build a hybrid stack, take the best of both?

the space industry is really one of the few things that we accell at when compared to the rest of the world

Then why would Lockheed-Martin use Russian engines? Why would Nasa pay Russia to build the first ISS module? Why would Boeing launch Zenith rockets? Why would Costa-Rica build the VASIMR engine?

Then russia decides we need to stop supporting a country that they want to control and oops whats that?

Virtually all electronics and most goods sold under a US brand actually come from Asia. 'Made in America' is a thing of the past. If Asian factories pull the plug, no more computers, no space probes, no radars, no toys for the kids,...
The global economy is fully interdependent: you need their stuff, they need your money. If you accept it from China, why not from Russia?

For one i just would rather have these things made in america by american. American jobs american engineering. Does that mean russian stuff is crap or i hate russians? No i just would rather have my own country do this. I'd rather keep the ability here. We have lost enough industry.

Many of those computers, cars, electronics are however assembled here. The asian factories arent going to pull the plug. If they did there economies would collapse and they would go into civil war in many cases. Russia has also shown that no matter what iran does they will continue giving them missiles and weapons so......

Let me put it this way. Right before the invention of the steam wheel would you want your country to give up its steel or iron industry?

Patriotism only gets you so far. Ok. I just find this logicaly in my countries best interest.

 

[orionrider]

i just would rather have these things made in america by american. American jobs american engineering.

There I can follow you 100%. I think it's a shame fine US products were de-localized or simply disappeared. I hear Obama is trying to restore domestic production and reduce imports from Asia to create local jobs. It will be seen as anti-capitalism, but I don't like the way China floods the West with cheap crappy stuff. It's time to put rules on globalism.

As for space, the money spared by using off-the-shelf Russian rockets can be used in more cutting-edge sectors of the US economy, especially R&D and theoretical Science. Science always pays in the long term.
Good rockets is OK, but for the future new sources of energy and propulsion are the things that matter.

 

[bdewoody]

The last time the Russians tried to launch a really big rocket they just about wiped out their whole space organization.

 

[orionrider]

Yes, and I suspect there were many more accidents which were kept secret. China probably works that way too...
But the Energia did work with the Buran shuttle, so at least they know the design is OK.

Now, did NASA or anybody else disclose how they intend to put the required mass in orbit? They could do it with many medium launchers, but it would not be cost-efficient, nor fast. And I suppose there are pieces that are just too difficult to split :?:

 

[orionrider]

This is it! There is no way to build and test an entirely new 'huge' rocket in just five years with the proposed budget. Senate knows that, Obama knows that and Nasa knows that. The only way to do it is to use the only existing 'huge' rocket on this planet. This fits perfectly in the recent hints at more 'International cooperation'.
So they are reviving Energiya, one way or another. We're going to MARS! :mrgreen:

the new authorization bill directs NASA to immediately begin work on a huge, heavy-lift rocket. [...]The bill would also advance the development of spacecraft for deep space missions to as early as 2016, rather than 2025

Senate Panel Approves NASA Plans to Send Astronauts to Asteroid, Mars
http://www.space.com/news/senate-approv ... 00715.html

 

[EarthlingX]

This is it! There is no way to build and test an entirely new 'huge' rocket in just five years with the proposed budget. Senate knows that, Obama knows that and Nasa knows that. The only way to do it is to use the only existing 'huge' rocket on this planet. This fits perfectly in the recent hints at more 'International cooperation'.
So they are reviving Energiya, one way or another. We're going to MARS! :mrgreen:

the new authorization bill directs NASA to immediately begin work on a huge, heavy-lift rocket. [...]The bill would also advance the development of spacecraft for deep space missions to as early as 2016, rather than 2025

Senate Panel Approves NASA Plans to Send Astronauts to Asteroid, Mars
http://www.space.com/news/senate-approv ... 00715.html

No, this is not about Energia, it is about SDLV.

The last time Energia was launched, it orbited RLV, which after that autonomously landed. They stopped research, because of the end of Soviet Union.

Russians will build Angara for a heavy lift, test flights in 2013, probably a year later due to the financing.

It will use RD-191, which is related to RD-180 used on Atlas V, if that is what you had in mind.

 

[orionrider]

The Energia production lines are still there, ready to use.
We will know very fast. In only a few years (or months) the plan should be made public. I bet they will build something based on Energia, or at least using the Zenith boosters and Energia engines.

 

[EarthlingX]

The Energia production lines are still there, ready to use.
We will know very fast. In only a few years (or months) the plan should be made public. I bet they will build something based on Energia, or at least using the Zenith boosters and Energia engines.

Zenit is not a Russian rocket but Ukrainan, but they use RD-171/RD-170, which is a Russian engine.

 

[orionrider]

Right. Even more international then...

Like they said in the movie: "American components, Russian components, all made in Taiwan!" :lol:

 

[EarthlingX]

Right. Even more international then...

Like they said in the movie: "American components, Russian components, all made in Taiwan!" :lol:

:lol:

 

[nimbus]

It's definitely SDLV, probably a lot like DIRECT. I do remember seeing mention of RD-180s being less likely to be chosen specifically because they're Russian.