ISS Dodging Space Junk again

[MeteorWayne]

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/09 ... elter.html

A small piece of space junk will fly uncomfortably close to the International Space Station late Friday and may force astronauts aboard the outpost to take shelter in their Russian lifeboats.

NASA's Mission Control radioed the six astronauts on the station earlier today to alert them of the approaching space junk, which will fly within 1,640 feet (500 meters) of the orbiting laboratory Friday night at 10:48 EST (0348 Saturday GMT).

Sending the astronauts into their Soyuz lifeboats would be a precaution only, NASA officials said. Currently, the space junk poses no threat to the station or its crew, they added.

"It's pretty unusual," said Kirk Shireman, NASA's deputy station program manager, said of the shelter plan in an interview. "I wouldn't be surprised if the need to do it for this [debris event] goes away."

The object is likely very small because it is difficult to track, NASA spokesperson Rob Navias told SPACE.com. News of its close approach to the station came too late to steer the massive orbiting laboratory clear using its Russian thrusters.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Related story:

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/09 ... rease.html

The amount of junk floating in space is getting out of hand and the United States must step up its effort to control orbital trash, experts are saying.

The chief of U.S. Strategic Command said Wednesday that America needs better tools to monitor the orbital debris that's up there and plan to avoid collisions with valuable satellites.

"We are decades behind where we should be, in my view," said Air Force Gen. Kevin P. Chilton in a speech at Offutt Air Force Base, Neb. Chilton called for more personnel and more sensors and equipment to study and combat the threat.

There are about 800 satellites in orbit now, and more than 20,000 pieces of debris in total, including bits of dead satellites and spent rockets, as well as more eccentric items like loose gloves and tools that slipped away from astronauts on spacewalks. And it's only likely to get worse as more satellites are launched into the increasingly crowded orbital corridors of space.

 

[andrew_t1000]

Might be time to install a CIWS on the ISS!
I'm not suggesting Millennium Falcon style turrets, aimed by eye!
A system designed so that targeted junk gets slowed down enough to de-orbit and burn up.
Something like a rapid fire shot gun with wide pattern wads, not to break junk into smaller pieces, just knock some velocity off them.
Another thing to look at might be shooting "gooey" balls at space junk, again, not to break them up but just knock them into a decaying orbit.
The satellites we want to keep are in well known orbits, the aiming system I'm suggesting would take that into consideration.
What I'm proposing is a kind of "SkySweeper" system to take out a heap of the smaller bits of crap.
Using a system like this to knock garbage out of orbit so it burns up is feasible, do-able with current technology and would be cheap.
Some of the pie in the sky suggestions I've read go from plain out silly to ridiculous!
Obviously something will have to be done soon.

 

[missionunknown]

Typical. Wouldn't firing bullets/ shot gun type projectiles make the problem worse? How about a big net to collect all the junk?

 

[andrew_t1000]

Pie in the sky! A net?!
It would need to be a big, strong net!
Like about the size of a football stadium. Then what? Real it in like drift netting tuna?
The reason I suggested some kind of scatter gun was not to knock bits off or break junk into smaller clouds of even more dangerous debris, but to spread out the impact.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Too many people have too weak an understanding of physics to appreciate what a difficult and energy intensive process harvesting space junk would be.

 

[missionunknown]

Pie in the sky! A net?!
It would need to be a big, strong net!
Like about the size of a football stadium. Then what? Real it in like drift netting tuna?
The reason I suggested some kind of scatter gun was not to knock bits off or break junk into smaller clouds of even more dangerous debris, but to spread out the impact.

ah i see. Still my net idea is kinda nice no. :lol: albeit impossible to implement.

 

[MeteorWayne]

I don't see how proposing something that is "nice" but unrealistic really advances the conversation.

Wayne the user.

 

[SpaceTas]

The worst case scenario, is that we'll get to a critical point; the density of space junk is so high that a chain reaction of collisions start. The pieces of one collision, start colliding .... the debries cloud spreads through all low Earth orbits. A great way to kill access to space. Sure the bits will decay but that will take many many years.

Given enough junk and plenty of time a nice metal ring would form.

What we don't need is another anti-satellite test.

What we do need is an integrated system, tracking debries and satellites, calculating possible collisions, warning satellite operators, then moving satellites out of the way. The first steps on this have been taken along these lines. The rapid computations is a current roadblock, then the tracking.

 

[missionunknown]

I don't see how proposing something that is "nice" but unrealistic really advances the conversation.

Wayne the user.

Do you know i've already accepted and acknowledged that i understand to the forum that the net idea is unrealistic i shall not do it again. One could argue you wasted time with your last post as well as mine.

 

[silylene]

The worst case scenario, is that we'll get to a critical point; the density of space junk is so high that a chain reaction of collisions start. The pieces of one collision, start colliding .... the debries cloud spreads through all low Earth orbits. A great way to kill access to space. Sure the bits will decay but that will take many many years.

Given enough junk and plenty of time a nice metal ring would form.

What we don't need is another anti-satellite test.

What we do need is an integrated system, tracking debries and satellites, calculating possible collisions, warning satellite operators, then moving satellites out of the way. The first steps on this have been taken along these lines. The rapid computations is a current roadblock, then the tracking.

What we do need is to de-orbit the Iridium Constellation. I had a thread on this subject with good debate (both sides), under one of my prior name handles during the Plucked-up era, or de-Pluckification eras.

Iridium is of minimal value now (and always has been). The world would get along just fine if it disappeared, and in fact hardly anyone would notice.

Mark my word - the Iridium Constellation will have another collision, probably with debris from the prior Iridium collision (those two debris fields are largely at the same orbital height as the dozens of Iridiums, and at skewed directions for maximum harmful disruption), and that upcoming collision will set off the chain reaction of exponentially increasing collisions. And exactly as you said, that will be the end of manned and even unmanned access to NEO for many many years.

It is simply a matter of time before Iridium takes down NEO.

Tick, tock, tick, tock

 

[CalliArcale]

If Iridum worries you, how do you feel about the number of nations which are now entering the world of satellite communications in a big way, causing that market to be one of the few which posted significant gains in 2009? Deorbiting Iridum won't solve the problem; I think it will only get worse, and it's going to be like the Wild West up there, as there is no real governing body to impose any sort of order. So far, it's all just been enlightened self-interest, and that really only takes one so far.

 

[nimbus]

So that makes two wrong and they don't make a right together. If Silylene is right - that we can do without the Iridium cloud (pun not intended) and that it will inevitably cause more collisions (or odds that it won't are negligible enough) - Iridium needs to be de-orbited asap.

 

[MeteorWayne]

silylene and I have agreeably disagreed about this. The Iridiums are only a part of the satellites orbiting at that altitude, so removing them doesn't solve the problem.

 

[nimbus]

And the Iridium fleet's contribution to the odds of starting a collision cascade are negligible?

 

[MeteorWayne]

I didn't say that. While sliylene thinks the Iridiums areen't used, it turns out one of the most active remaining users is the US military. Would they be happy about a unique tool being deorbited?

And I need to check how many other commsats are in similar orbits. It might be half as many, it might be 10 times as many. If it's half as many, maybe it's a good idea. If it's 10 times as many, the Iridiums aren't the bulk of the problem. After all, the Iridium hit another spacecraft in the same orbit, so it's not like they are the only sats there...

BTW, this is way off topic for this thread as the Iridium and ISS orbits are completely different. I'll see if I can find one of the threads in Space Business and Technology that was discussing the Iridium issue to resurrect.

There's nothing to suggest that the piece that the ISS didn't have to dodge came from an Iridium.

 

[nimbus]

I wasn't implying you had. It was an honest question.

BTW, this is way off topic for this thread as the Iridium and ISS orbits are completely different. I'll see if I can find one of the threads in Space Business and Technology that was discussing the Iridium issue to resurrect.

There's nothing to suggest that the piece that the ISS didn't have to dodge came from an Iridium.

And none of the Iridium collision will come across the ISS orbit?

 

[scottb50]

[

There's nothing to suggest that the piece that the ISS didn't have to dodge came from an Iridium.

That two objects are in different orbits doesn't mean those orbits don't cross on another at some point. Every orbit of ISS passes over a different path every orbit as does every orbit of the debris. If they are in different altitude orbits they will not interact until one decays through the others orbit, something small debris does fairly rapidly. If they are in the same orbital altitude eventually their paths will cross.

The smaller the pieces the more effect sunlight has on them and the quicker they decay in orbit, passing through any number of other orbits before they re-enter and burn up. The Chinese explosion was above most manned or other LEO orbits and as it spreads out and decays it will pass through pretty much every orbit lower then it's own. The Iridium accident presents the same picture, eventually a large conglomeration will meet up with another body and collide.

 

[andrew_t1000]

I just can't help thinking about "Cowboy BeBop"
Except with smaller pieces!

One thing I have wondered about is what happens during the regular meteor showers?
Do they add to the problem?
The Persieds and Orionids were a bust for me this year, (I'm hoping the Leonids will be better), but do does the ISS crew go "on alert" during meteor showers?
I would have thought bits of comet must be travelling faster than orbital crap.

 

[MeteorWayne]

The particle density of meteor showers is so low, it's not really that big a concern except for EVA's. They would not conduct an EVA during a shower peak above, say ZHR 100.

BTW, the Leonid meteors are very close to the fastest possible at 71 km/sec (~ 160,000 mph) relative to the earth.

 

[silylene]

The particle density of meteor showers is so low, it's not really that big a concern except for EVA's. They would not conduct an EVA during a shower peak above, say ZHR 100. ....

article on collisions between satellites and meteorittes and debris. A few sats were disabled by suspected meteorite strikes, incl during a meteor dtorm: http://www.newscientist.com/gallery/dn18142-meteor-showers

meteroite damage to the Hubble solar array:

 

[MeteorWayne]

It's still far more likely it was an orbital debris impact rather than a meteoroid that hit the solar panel.

 

[silylene]

The worst case scenario, is that we'll get to a critical point; the density of space junk is so high that a chain reaction of collisions start. The pieces of one collision, start colliding .... the debries cloud spreads through all low Earth orbits. A great way to kill access to space. Sure the bits will decay but that will take many many years.

Given enough junk and plenty of time a nice metal ring would form.

What we don't need is another anti-satellite test.

What we do need is an integrated system, tracking debries and satellites, calculating possible collisions, warning satellite operators, then moving satellites out of the way. The first steps on this have been taken along these lines. The rapid computations is a current roadblock, then the tracking.

What we do need is to de-orbit the Iridium Constellation. I had a thread on this subject with good debate (both sides), under one of my prior name handles during the Plucked-up era, or de-Pluckification eras.

Iridium is of minimal value now (and always has been). The world would get along just fine if it disappeared, and in fact hardly anyone would notice.

Mark my word - the Iridium Constellation will have another collision, probably with debris from the prior Iridium collision (those two debris fields are largely at the same orbital height as the dozens of Iridiums, and at skewed directions for maximum harmful disruption), and that upcoming collision will set off the chain reaction of exponentially increasing collisions. And exactly as you said, that will be the end of manned and even unmanned access to NEO for many many years.

It is simply a matter of time before Iridium takes down NEO.

Tick, tock, tick, tock

Oh no, not another 61 Iridiums to be launched ! A $2.1B order for more satellites
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10212836.stm

 

[andrew_t1000]

Why is Iridium of "little or no value"?

If it wasn't so damn expensive I'd have one instead of borrowing a handset when I go adventuring.
What other options are there in remote area's?
HF radio? Damn expensive to buy and install.
UHF CB, that's if a repeater is in range or a trucker just happens to drive along a highway that might be close to your LOS.
EPIRB? Yes, I have taken one away, but turning it on without a life threatening situation is a big fine.

Or should I take a few hundred KM of cable and spool it out from the last town or station (farm)?

Iridium is a great way to coordinate party members that are following your main group, staying in touch while you're away or for the odd time when you need that vehicle spare you didn't think you needed.

There is a big wide world out there guys and most of it has no cell coverage!

 

[nimbus]

The point is there won't be much value in Iridium or anything too useful up there if it pans out like Silylene argues.