I've found the speed of gravity & it's a constant zero

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siarad

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Imagine bring in a boat drifting down a river. You can't determine any motion internally only by external reference as the river & you move at the same speed. Similarly, free-falling with gravity you can't feel it so it must be going at the same speed as you. Try going faster or slower & gravity drags on you just as a river does.<br />In a space ship sling-shotting around a giant planet you would feel absolutely nothing, despite increasing or reducing your speed & even changing direction! Similarly aiming directly at the Sun you could not know your speed except by external reference.<br />How can this be? Well it must be because the speed of gravity is a second constant of the universe & is zero. However we measure it the answer is always the same just as light.<br />The problems now are: we can't make any measurement as nothing I know measures zero; our maths, of which I've complained for most of my life, can't deal with zero, except as a trick.<br />The universal constant of gravity was measured here in the UK by use of a plumb-bob deflected by a mountain. This leads us to think it is contained within mass but can't be true else a black hole would be just as invisible to gravity as light, since neither can escape. Therefore it appears to be a property of space which mass, somehow, is able to dent. Just as space seems to keep the speed of light C constant does it keep the speed of gravity G? constant.
 
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Leovinus

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Similarly, free-falling with gravity you can't feel it so it must be going at the same speed as you.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Uh, I have to disagree here. In a free-fall, your speed is constantly changing. Are you saying that the speed of gravity changes as you change your speed within a gravity field? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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siarad

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No I clearly said it's a <i>constant</i>, just like the speed of light. i.e. however you measure it the answers the same surely the definition of constant. Irespective of my speed, operating against gravity with the same force produces the same weight. Freefalling at 10 mph & breaking with a force gives me the same weight as if I was travelling at 100 million mph because gravity is going at zero speed.
 
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siarad

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Yes that backs up what I've said due to maths not being able to deal with zero, so it <i>seems</i> gravity has infinite speed.<br />Why can't I underline
 
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oscarb44

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/* ad-hominem deleted */ Of course the "speed" of gravity is zero. Duh, gravity is a force and thus has no speed. The Acceleration "due to" gravity is another matter. It is a constant 9.8 m/s. Free falling objects will continue to accelerate at 9.8 m/s until they a. strike the ground or b. reach terminal velocity due to friction with the atmosphere.
 
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Leovinus

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Why can't gravity have a speed? We know that matter can be transformed into energy. Suppose you did such a thing to all the matter in the Sun and its mass totally disappears. How long before Pluto feels the affects of a missing star? Would it be instant? This would mean gravity has infinite speed. Would it be at the speed of light? If so, Pluto would continue orbiting the Sun's previous location for a few more hours, right? Perhaps it would be slower than the speed of light. I think what we're talking about here is the speed of propogation of gravity waves. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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nikshliker

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First off...I have to say, we know so little about gravity it seems funny. You can't claim t find a speed to gravity for the very fact that gravity as we thin of it is a force that exhibits acceleration n objects of constant mass. To say gravity has a speed would be a strange notions indeed. If you were to remove the sun instantly (I dont know how you could ever test this) what would happen? I have no idea. The way I've been taught is to look at gravity as being instant. Since it can escape a black hole it either means that the gravity field is massless or the gravitrons can move faster than c.<br /><br />You say our math can't involve zero? that was the very reason calculus was invented - to deal with infinity and 0.<br /><br />As far as I have read there r no explanations to your questions. But thinking of gravity as having a speed is incorrect also.
 
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nikshliker

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I have once gone through and proved infinity = to 5. It was hilarious. the only error I made wa trying to use infinity in algebra. Gravity is entirely too advanced to simplify it into having a speed.
 
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Leovinus

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I don't thinkI said anything about our math can't involve 0. Calculus was my favorite subject in college. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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qzzq

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<i>Duh, gravity is a force and thus has no speed.</i><br /><br /><ul type="square">The speed of gravity has been measured for the first time. The landmark experiment shows that it travels at the speed of light, meaning that Einstein's general theory of relativity has passed another test with flying colours.</ul><br /><br />http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993232 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>***</p> </div>
 
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siarad

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Well of course they got that answer, look how it was measured.<br />oscarb44 seems to be the only one who may be on the right track but a statement doesn't convey any cognisance of this.<br />I'm being sneaky to try & get people to think about their blind believe or regurgitation of science. Hint I did mention light.
 
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siarad

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The calculus deals with zero! Integrate a sine wave from 0 to 360 degrees, zero isn't it but we all know it's 2 so calculus didn't point this out. What if that was not apparent then all manner could happen. Design a loudspeaker without recognising this & every frequency is doubled, it needs a bias equal to the peak value to shift that zero. Solve a differential equation for a car suspension system to have zero deflection, it's impossible. Put in a tiny number & theoreticaly there are infinite answers but practically limited by the granularity of the components. And what of the Tangent, oops, mind that discontinuity, just what happens there, a big bang creating a universe or a whistle blowing. No one with any safety consideration could rely on tangents.
 
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5stone10

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<font color="yellow">get people to think about their blind believe or regurgitation of science</font><br /><br /><br />This would assume that this board is filled with blank generation MTV types.<br /><br />It is not !
 
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siarad

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Oh! sorry that's not at all what I meant, I'm probably the least knowledgable person here & was not criticising but appealing.<br />Interestingly most of you jumped to a different frame of reference than I suggested or perhaps I lead you so to do. Interesting, 'cos you don't when dealing with light & I've several times tried to so induce. Now I see you can jump frames I'll start a light topic, so's not to confuse this one.<br />My problem as originally put is simple. Freefalling towards the sun & curving around & back to earth for sling-shotting to Jupiter to further sling-shot I feel absolutely nothing. I've gone thro' many changes in velocity but apparently felt none. Now just how do I reconcile Newtons laws? Star trek does the same trick of changing velocity without crushing it's crew much to laughter of scientists, so why the laughter? & no reply to my original as to whether I was right or mis-interpreting.
 
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siarad

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I queried this way back & maddad, I think, sent me to a site showing orbital calculations with something similar to my problem. However their calculations seemed incorrect to me. As far as I can tell with gravity propagating parallel with light it strikes the earth at an angle of 20 arc seconds & this would push the earth out of orbit in a Milena or so. Only by gravity propagating well above C would the earth stay in orbit, which we all know it does. If gravity is a force then I & another who so replied are right & the speed of the force of gravity is zero but is it a force. Acceleration was mentioned but I'm at a loss to understand how acceleration occurs without force. Now I clearly don't understand gravity but am trying hopefully with further help.
 
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nikshliker

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how do they measure this speed of gravity? could you possibly have something rotating a mass at an extreme speed then move the mass that it is rotating and monitore the changes?<br /><br />What if things acngo faster than c? what if we are discovering new speeds which could actualy go faster but our current ideas dont support it? It's late and these r random what ifs....
 
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siarad

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I'll never get the hang of this science thingy. So the speed of gravity has been measured & it's in the <b>opposite</b> direction from it's force. Please please how is this? is it <i>clawing</i> it's way through space thus pushing <b>back</b> against any object? like a cars wheel does against the road. If so of what are it's claws made?
 
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qzzq

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They measured the speed of gravity by looking at how Jupiter's gravitational field bent the radiowaves of a quasar. The way the quasar seemed to shift positions gave them a indication of the speed of gravity, which was at 0,95c, but they had a small margin for error, so...<br /><br />This is what the article says: <br /><br /><ul type="square">Kopeikin found another way. He reworked the equations of general relativity to express the gravitational field of a moving body in terms of its mass, velocity and the speed of gravity. If you could measure the gravitational field of Jupiter, while knowing its mass and velocity, you could work out the speed of gravity.</ul> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>***</p> </div>
 
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kelle

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The Acceleration "due to" gravity is another matter. It is a constant 9.8 m/s. Free falling objects will continue to accelerate at 9.8 m/s until they a. strike the ground or b. reach terminal velocity due to friction with the atmosphere.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />It's not exactly constant, as it decreases the further you are from the center of the Earth. So it's lower on the top of a mountain than on the sea floor.<br /><br />As everyone knows:<br />g (acceleration) =gamma*(mass of earth/distance from earth center^2)<br />where gamma = 6.67*10^-11<br /><br />As for the speed of gravity, I think gravity waves are spread at c. Or perhaps it's much faster? That could explain the expanding of our universe. Perhaps the reason why our universe is expanding ever faster is gravity waves from universes outside our own reaching us before light from them come here. Who knows?
 
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ironsun

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<font color="yellow">I'll never get the hang of this science thingy. So the speed of gravity has been measured & it's in the opposite direction from it's force. Please please how is this? is it clawing it's way through space thus pushing back against any object? like a cars wheel does against the road. If so of what are it's claws made? </font><br /><br />It's because you're still thinking of gravity as a force when (at least under relativity) it isn't. It's the curvature of space-time caused by the presence of matter. In one sense, yes the speed of gravity is zero because it is a constant bending of space which doesn't change unless there is a change in the object. These changes, however, are transmitted at the speed of light so if the Sun were suddenly converted completely into light the change in the field would reach us at the same moment the light does. <br /><br />
 
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siarad

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Well yes, I've not been able to work out whether gravity is a force or not, some days I see where it's <i>equal & opposite reaction</i> is & others not.<br />You're talking of the bowling ball theory. Take the rubber sheet & bowling ball to the ISS & it makes no dent. Tie the centre of the rubber sheet to the floor making a dent & shoot a cue ball across which will simply cross over the dent not running down it, no matter what angle. It must be the same with bending space as there is no gravity pulling to the centre is there? These <i>curves</i> in space are straight lines so what keeps a mass following these.
 
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chip5541

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I always thought gravity was near or at the speed of light. As a person who also has interest in the paranormal, there is plenty of antidotal evidence of "time distortions" that is a naturally occuring (although rare) event and it had always been my belief that gravity was involved.
 
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