Juno Mission - 2nd new frontier

[kane007]

"NASA announced Wednesday that a mission to fly to Jupiter will proceed to a preliminary design phase. The mission is called Juno, and it is the second in NASA's New Frontiers Program.<br /><br />The mission will conduct a first-time, in-depth study of the giant planet. This mission proposes to place a spacecraft in a polar orbit around Jupiter to investigate the existence of an ice-rock core; determine the amount of global water and ammonia present in the atmosphere; study convection and deep wind profiles in the atmosphere; investigate the origin of the Jovian magnetic field; and explore the polar magnetosphere."<br /><br />Space Daily link - http://www.spacedaily.com/news/jupiter-moons-05b.html<br /><br />Appears to be in the original time slot of JIMO, which I understand is slipping further into the future.

 

[wvbraun]

The Moon sample return mission that lost out against Juno made more sense to me...

 

[kane007]

Maybe its Nasa's thinking that they'll have personnel on the moon after 2015 and that should suffice.

 

[dragon04]

This mission really makes no sense to me. Ice-rock core? The planet has already been proven to be quite toasty not so far down in. What would make anyone in their right mind even consider an ice-rock core beneath tens of thousands of miles of atmosphere?<br /><br />Ugh... What are they thinking?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[henryhallam]

I remember reading somewhere that ice can actually form at quite high temperatures if the pressure is VERY high. It differs from "normal" ice by having a different crystal structure. Actaully I think there are several types of ice, denoted by roman numerals e.g. Ice I, Ice II etc.<br />So possibly this is what they're thinking about.<br />Here's a diagram showing the phase of water at various temperatures and pressures: <br /><br />http://www.mines.utah.edu/~tcerling/gg330/H2O_phases.JPG<br /><br />Note that 1 kbar = 1000 atmospheres. Obviously the pressure at Jupiter's core is way above what's shown on the diagram but it sounds like there are theoretical models suggesting some kind of ice is possible in that range.

 

[yurkin]

I liked the moon sample return mission better. But truthfully there’s greater scientific return form the Juno mission. And since the JIMO mission appears to have been canceled in favor of added focus on the M2M program. Going with the Jupiter mission over the moon seems like something of a compromise.<br /><br />I just hope this time they put a camera of some sort on the in-situ probes.

 

[chew_on_this]

I would love to see a sample return from Europa. Even a simple core sample could provide evidence of life deep below. This could coincide with a radar mapping mission to determine the ice depth for a later lander to melt through the ice to the possible ocean below.

 

[wvbraun]

A sample return mission to Europa is probably decades away...

 

[wvbraun]

I agree.

 

[chew_on_this]

<font color="yellow">A sample return mission to Europa is probably decades away...</font><br /><br />Are you saying "politically" it's decades away or it's "technologicaly" decades away?

 

[najab]

Image not approved: If you want to debate politics, do it in Free Space.

 

[najab]

And yes, it is technologically decades away.

 

[chew_on_this]

I think you are power trippin' Najab. My question involved more than just politics. And no I didn't ask you. And I don't believe it's technologicaly decades away regardless. If a sample return can be done from Mars it can be done from Jupiter.

 

[najab]

It's not power tripping. I was going to make a similar comment, but realised that it's not appropriate on the Missions and Launches forum. While the question is valid, your image wasn't on this forum.

 

[henryhallam]

<font color="yellow"><br /> If a sample return can be done from Mars it can be done from Jupiter.<br /></font><br /><br />Absoultely and totally wrong.<br /><br />Just as an example: dV required to escape from a Jovian orbit similar to Europa's, on an Earth-intercepting trajectory, is about 5.5 km/s on a good launch window. Add another ~1.5km/s to launch from Europa's surface and leave Europan orbit. You're looking at 7km/s which is only slightly less than that needed to launch from the Earth's surface into LEO. Assuming a modestly-sized sample return capsule, you have to get something similar to the SpaceX Falcon I onto the surface of Europa. Now doing THAT will require a helluvabig rocket. This sort of mission screams "nuclear-electric" but even with that, it would be an enormous challenge. You cannot forgo chemical rockets entirely because of the need to land on and take off from Europa. I'm not sure if you can use an ion drive to enter Jupiter orbit, it's probably possible. Tricks like aerobraking will save you some dV on the way in but I would put a conservative SWAG for the total dV of the mission (excluding Earth launch) at about 12km/s. This isn't going to be possible for a long time. Obviously even with VASIMR or similar, a manned mission to the Jovian moons is out of the question for at least a century, unless somebody comes up with a warp drive (not likely).

 

[chew_on_this]

I had no intention of debating politics. Pictures of Wonder Woman and a weasel in seti is acceptable but my gif of Bush (which actually had some bearing) isn't? I smell a double standard. Lighten up.

 

[wvbraun]

Excellent post, henryhallam. And there is your answer, chew.

 

[chew_on_this]

<font color="yellow">Absoultely and totally wrong.</font><br /><br />I guess I'd have a little more faith in this statement if absolutely had been spelled right. So here you go, just two missions proposed which don't take even a decade.<br /><br />http://www.astrobiology.com/europa/clipper/d234.science.html<br /><br />http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/abstracts/638Paniagua.pdf<br /><br /><br />

 

[chew_on_this]

Right back atcha...see above.

 

[henryhallam]

<font color="yellow"><br />I guess I'd have a little more faith in this statement if absolutely had been spelled right.<br /></font><br /><br />Forgive me for cold fingers and a dodgy keyboard.<br /><br /><font color="yellow"><br />http://www.astrobiology.com/europa/clipper/d234.science.html <br /></font><br /><br />"The favorable alignment of velocity vectors allows the Ice Clipper to fly by Europa at a relative velocity of 10 km/s, 50 km above the surface."<br /><br />Well this one is certainly a bold idea! They chuck an impactor at the surface, which skims up some ice grains that they then hope to collect as the spacecraft whizzes by at 10km/s (this of course does negate the need for a huge rocket because the whole mission is a flyby). I hardly think though that this is going to "provide evidence of life deep below." It is certainly not a "core sample". I still think such a mission is at least 10 years away technologically. Interesting nonetheless.<br /><br /><font color="yellow"><br />http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/abstracts/638Paniagua.pdf<br /></font><br />A brand new nuclear rocket engine, ISRU, a tethered nuclear submarine that melts through />15km of ice, swims around picking up alien fish, CLIMBS BACK UP THROUGH THE MELTED CHANNEL, returns its sample to the spacecraft and launches into the wild black yonder. <br />"Plus Ultra Technologies, inc." are certainly optimistic (though they do have one PhD in aerospace, I'll grant them that much). But there is no way they can deliver this within a decade. They don't even claim that: the 5 years quoted are the mission duration. It is at LEAST 30 years away, being generous.<br /><br />I may have been a little strong in my wording when I said "absolutely and totally wrong" but you really can't compare a Mars

 

[JonClarke]

Let's not forget the complexity of the autonomous control system required, again decades beyond what we now have. <br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[chew_on_this]

<font color="yellow">I hardly think though that this is going to "provide evidence of life deep below.</font><br /><br />The idea behing this course is that the ice has been "turned over" (per the jumbled "rafting") and if there is abundant life below, it will be highly evident in the ice near surface.<br /><br />I'm sure if the desire were there, we could do either before 2020.

 

[vogon13]

If I send a lander to Europa to look for life, do I need do anything more complex than melt a small chip of surface ice and look at the liquid with a microscope ? <br /><br />Especially if I touchdown on a spot that seems to be one of the 'fresh ice' patches ?<br /><br />I spot one diatom or dead ameoba and I've won the brass ring.<br /><br />BTW, I'm taking a seismograph too, darn interested in how much shaking goes on there. <br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[najab]

>...<i> if there is abundant life below, it will be highly evident in the ice near surface.</i><p>True, but with this mission profile you can't even be sure that you will eve <i>get</i> any ice to start with. The only way to be sure is with a lander.</p>

 

[kane007]

Nasa has their Juno Mission website up and running.<br /><br />Go for launch in 2011 of this <b>SOLAR POWERED</b> Jovian probe.