Katrina and Michoud

[radarredux]

The Lockheed Martin Michoud operations appear to be in the middle of the bullseye for Katrina, currently a Category 5 hurricane.<br /><br />With Michoud at the center of the shuttle external tank issue, the ET at the center of the continuing delays to operational return to flight, and Michoud's precarious position, sandwiched between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain (sp?) and sitting on low-lying land (below sea level?), this sounds like it could be a very bad thing for the shuttle program.<br /><br />Has there been any comments regarding Katrina's potential impact on shuttle operations?<br /><br />FYI: Here is Michoud's web site:<br />http://www.lockheedmartin.com/michoud/

 

[drwayne]

Tangentially related to your question, there are a couple of threads in the Forces of Nature section for those of us in/near the storms path...<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[shuttle_rtf]

I'll ask the MAF guys what the score is.

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">Has there been any comments regarding Katrina's potential impact on shuttle operations?</font>/i><br /><br />Here is an article from SpaceFlight Now:<br /><br />Hurricane Katrina threatens shuttle external tank facility<br />http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0508/28michoud/<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>A small "rideout" crew is in place at Lockheed Martin's sprawling external tank production facility in New Orleans, braced for potentially catastrophic flooding and destructive winds from Hurricane Katrina.<br />...<br />Seven substantially complete space shuttle external tanks are on site at the Michoud Assembly Facility with another eight to 10 in various stages of production. Any major damage to the facility could impact NASA's plans to resume shuttle flights next year.<br />...<br />Given the delay getting the tank back to Louisiana, and any potential damage suffered by the Michoud facility after landfall Monday, NASA will be extremely hard pressed to launch Discovery next March as currently planned.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote></i>

 

[askold]

This hurricane could be heaven sent - if the tank facility is damaged, the shuttle program could be canceled and blamed on acts of god. That way no person has to be the scapegoat.

 

[no_way]

I believe LM's plans for CEV would have used Michoud as well.<br />IF Michoud is hit severely, this might reduce potential CEV contractors to grand total of one.<br /><br />This _is_ a terrible day coming for everyone <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> apart from the direct loss of life and damage to hurricane area, most of the people are going to be hit with rising oil prices, just check whats happening already, over $70 a barrel <br /><br /><br />EDIT: and, once again, this shows how stupid and fragfile is the approach of ONE vehicle, ONE system for the entire nations capability of space access. Unless you build your infrastructure indestructible by any natural disaster which is next to impossible, you stand a chance of losing your spaceflight capability entirely. Shuttle-derived everything is as fragile in this respect as the Shuttle itself.

 

[halman]

no_way,<br /><br />There are times when I wish that some NASA administrator back about 1972 had said, "Nobody told us to build this monstrosity, they just said that we should look into it. Congress, you will not fund manned space flight adequately to do the job, so we are going to stop messing around and shut down our manned space flight program. We will continue with the various research projects that are the bread and butter of NASA, and we might launch an automatic probe once in a while, but we are done with manned spaceflight. We cannot do it with sporadic funding, funding that is cut midway through programs, and fractions of what we say it will cost. To try to do so is gambling with lives, because that is what manned space flight means, sending people into space.<br /><br />"We cannot build one element of a system, we must build the whole system. We need to have several different launch vehicles, not just one. We need to have several spacecraft for people to fly in, not just one. We must conquer space one step at a time, if we are going to stay there and use it."<br /><br />Sometimes, I even go so far as to wish that the Apollo program had not happened, because that destroyed any hope of building the infrastructure needed to go to the Moon over and over again. We never conquered space, we sailed about in our little tin cans, hoping that everything went as planned, with no provision for developing space. It was all about proving our supremecy, which we did, and then we proceded to sit on our laurels, figuring that we were all done.<br /><br />The only real advance that Apollo brought was the microprocessor. The impact that it has had on the world, and spaceflight in particular, makes Apollo worth while. But it didn't get us anywhere, it just showed that we could go there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

 

[frodo1008]

Go get drunk or something my friend! Wherner von Braun had plans for genuine circuler space stations, bases on the moon itself, and going on to Mars! It was NEITHER the fault of the Apollo program nor NASA that we had to backtrack as we did. It was simply that we had people in charge of government that would rather blow holes in rice paddy's in Southeastern Asia!<br /><br />I just hope that we are not seeing the same scenario repeat itself now with this Iraq thing!!<br /><br />

 

[drwayne]

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0508/29michoud/<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[no_way]

So it appears that they have mostly dodged the bullet this time.

 

[CalliArcale]

The article mentions Stennis having been evacuated as well. (That's where they've got that gargantuan test platform, originally built to test-fire entire S-IC stages. It's the only place in the world that can test-fire three SSMEs at once; never before and never since has a rocket test stand been built to that scale.) I would imagine the test stand's structure would survive; if it can hold down a Saturn V at full throttle, I'm sure it can cope with Katrina. But electronics and plumbing and stuff might not do so well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[shuttle_rtf]

First good news quote:<br />We've run an article on it...here's part:<br /><br />................However, in the last few hours, Lockheed Martin spokesman Evan McCollum, told New Scientist that the facility has escaped major damage which could have held up NASA's Return to Flight (RTF-3) of Discovery next Spring.<br /><br />"Several roofs at Michoud have damage that will need repairs. There are a few broken windows where limbs of trees have crashed in and the facility will be closed until at least next Tuesday," he said. <br /><br />"It's still without power. We have generators providing electricity to emergency crews, but they'll need to get power back before they open the facility."

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow"> <b>in the last few hours</b>, Lockheed Martin spokesman Evan McCollum, told New Scientist that the facility has escaped major damage which could have held up NASA's Return to Flight (RTF-3) of Discovery next Spring.</font>/i><br /><br />It sounds like the news for New Orleans is getting worse by the hour, not better. Areas are now flooding that were fine last night or early this morning, and it sounds like the water is pretty nasty (dead animals (including humans), sewer, chemicals, etc.) The government is issuing additional evacuation orders. They probably won't have power for a month. Many major roads have been heavily damaged.<br /><br />Even if Michoud avoids the additional flooding from the levee breaks, I wonder how Michoud plans to operate without power (beyond emergency generators), water, and sewer? And what about the employees? Where will they live, how much time will they need off to rapair damage to their personal property? How will they get to work?<br /><br />It seems like surviving the initial storm may have only been the first hurdle.</i>

 

[radarredux]

For those wanting maps of the area, below are links to Google's map service. If your bandwidth is good enough, you should be able to scroll around and zoom in and out to get a good view. From what I have gathered from the spotty news, the area of flooding (French Quarters, Superdome, etc.) is still fairly far from Michoud.<br /><br />Does anyone know what the elevation of Michoud is?<br /><br />Google Map to Michoud<br /><br />From Superdome to Michoud

 

[blairf]

"For the shuttle to lift off during the launch window that extends from March 4-19, the work schedule calls for a newly redesigned tank to leave Michoud by barge for Kennedy Space Center by mid-November. The chance of that occurring now appears remote"<br /><br />Oh well thats another couple of hundred million...<br /><br /><br />http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/custom/space/orl-bk-nasadamage083005,0,995900.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

 

[shuttle_rtf]

We've had three engineers come on our forum and state that the issue with Michoud negates the fact there are three ETs at KSC (one on a barge, one with Atlantis - ET-120) and one in the checkout cell.<br /><br />Two are required for RTF-3 and while all three need the modification - given said modification is for the removal of the PAL Ramps (as the main element of work) - work can be carried out with MAF workers at KSC.<br /><br />Work can be done - again, according to these engineers - in a clean status room - at KSC.<br /><br />Now, I want to speak to a specific and as high up as I can access ET engineer from both MAF and KSC before saying that is official, but I'll aim to do so.<br /><br />MAF will reopen on next Tuesday.

 

[shuttle_rtf]

On the story from Mike Cabbage....<br /><br />Well, talking to PR people isn't the best..but this below is incorrect (no offense to the reporter).<br /><br /> />However, there was no apparent damage to a final assembly area where four shuttle fuel tanks were stored in various stages of completion.<<br /><br />There are over 10 ETs at MAF...their main issue of late was where they could store the ETs coming back from KSC. There's about 15 ETs are very various stages of completion..I remember being told they had everything to complete the remaining missions of the STS (in a cut down 15-18 flight mandate) at MAF.<br /><br />ET-119 is on the barge at Port Canaveral. Didn't leave port due to the start of Katrina affecting Florida.<br /><br />Atlantis De-Mate (ET-120) on Sept 7th. Shipped back to MAF on Sept 17.<br /><br />ET-117 was due to go back after that.<br /><br />Again, I'll post more when I get to hear back from these two guys I want to speak to who will know the score.

 

[john_316]

isnt michoud sea level and just above sea level several feet... I think old swamps or silky sediment before...<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[radarredux]

From an internal NASA email:<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>-MAF (Michoud Assembly Facility), the very place where we needed the most intensive work activity for Return To Flight Part 2, was almost directly in Katrina's path and was hit pretty hard. Lots of damage to facility. Rough estimate is that 60% of workers there lost their homes. Also estimate 4-6 weeks to restore power and water to facility. Since the ET is so key right now, KSC has been asked to ascertain what, if any, ET PAL ramp rework could possibly be done here.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />More of the email is available at:<br />http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=17918

 

[shuttle_rtf]

One USA engineer on our forum - and one source on e-mail at around the same time - claiming they are looking at "the deactivated Titan IV buildings on Cape Canaveral to become a temp facility for the ET modifications."<br /><br />Another has added that the VAB is also a good possibility and he hadn't heard of the Titan IV building.<br /><br />All noted nothing is set in stone yet, but all appear to be sure the ET mods can be done at KSC...as previously thought.

 

[shuttle_rtf]

..and the death toll is now believed to be in the thousands - Mayor of N.O.

 

[askold]

Corp of Engineers says: if everything goes well (plugging the levees, fixing the pumps, ...) it will take 3 to 6 months to drain New Orleans!<br /><br />It looks like NO will be severely impacted in its ability to support the Shuttle RTF.

 

[shuttle_rtf]

Other KSC options: SLF hanger or O&C building

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">All noted nothing is set in stone yet, but all appear to be sure the ET mods can be done at KSC...as previously thought.</font>/i><br /><br />Yes, I think Michoud is out. Time to move to Plan B.</i>