Klipper update thread (part 1)

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shoogerbrugge

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If allowed by the moderators it might be kinda nice to keep a seperate thread for the advancements on the Russian (and maybe also European) Klipper. It doesn't need a sticky or something. I just prefer a database structure for forums, that keeps information otherwise lost in the mist of times availeble for everybody. Discussions are off course welcome. I'll try to give the thread a bump sometimes when new info surfaces.<br /><br />To start with: <br /><br />link: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetravel-05zzzc.html<br /><br /><b>Russian Space Agency To Launch Kliper Project</b><br />Jul 15, 2005<br /><br />The Russian Space Agency (Roskosmos) is about to start its Kliper launch vehicle project, the head of the agency told a Moscow press conference Thursday, reports RIA Novosti. Speaking to reporters after a Cabinet session, Anatoli Perminov said other national space agencies, in particular the European Space Agency, were very much interested in the Kliper project. He said that the Kliper launch vehicle, which Russia is to build in collaboration with other countries, would be able to carry a crew of six and land on first-class airfields.<br /><br />During the press conference, Perminov also spoke briefly about Roskosmos's planned Phobos Grunt mission to collect soil samples from the martian moon Phobos. "We see this as a Russian project, but are open to the idea of foreign participation. We would like it to be an international project," he said. The agency head also said an Earth-based experiment to prepare a mission to Mars was planned for next year and that over two dozen people had already volunteered to take part in the project. "This experiment will be invaluable," he said.
 
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yurkin

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I think we’re going to be bumping this thread for a few years before Klipper actually launches.
 
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no_way

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> a few years before Klipper actually launches<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />I suspect its gonna happen sooner than all the HLV wet dreams and the proposed seventh human lunar landing of 2018.<br />
 
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shoogerbrugge

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patience is a virtue they say.....<br /><br />I'll copy past and give a link towards the original for most articles. I've got no clue how long these spacedaily seperate articles remains accesable.<br /><br />PS, there was this great site with loads of fotos of the Klipper. I've tried to acces it just today, but it seems to have moved. Has somebody got a different URL?<br /><br />From spacedaily: http://www.spacedaily.com/2005/050610154540.ovuosxmh.html<br /><br /><b>Europe pledges support for planned Russian spacecraft</b><br />Jun 10, 2005<br /><br />The European Space Agency (ESA) on Friday pledged its backing for Russia's plans for manned spacecraft called Kliper, the news agency Itar-Tass reported here.<br /><br />Daniel Sacotte, ESA's director of human spaceflight, microgravity and exploration programmes, said here his organisation "would support" the project, it said. The project was discussed by Anatoly Perminov, head of the Russian Space Agency (RSA) and visiting ESA chief Jean-Jaques Dordain, it said. Dordan said a Russian-ESA collaboration plan would be put to a meeting of ESA ministers this December, and added hoped that other countries would join the Kliper scheme, with the goal of enabling its first flight around 2011.<br /><br />Kliper (Clipper), the brainchild of Russian space corporation RKK Energia, is sketched as a successor to the venerable Cold War workhorse of space, the Soyuz capsule. It would be a reusable, wingless space plane that would glide back to Earth, with up to seven people on board. It would be used for ferry services to the International Space Station (ISS) or for space tourism. Mockups of Kliper have been shown in aerospace shows in Europe and Japan in the hope of whipping up interest in it.<br /><br />
 
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shoogerbrugge

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As reported earlier by Vishniac.<br /><br />From spacedaily: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/kliper-05a.html<br /><br /><b>Kliper to use Buran seats</b><br />Jul 25, 2005<br /><br />Russia's Zvezda has agreed to provide ejection seats for the prototype of Energia's six-crew Kliper reusable spacecraft reports Flight International. The commercial Kliper will not use ejection seats, but the test vehicle will use seats developed for the former Soviet Union's Buran space shuttle program in the 1980s. According to public literature the Buran ejection seats were to use a solid rocket motor system that could propel test pilots up to 600 meters (1,800ft) from the Buran when flying at Mach 3 or less.<br /><br />The Kliper program is being pursued by a consortia of interested Russian, European, Japanese partners. It aims to develop a new manned taxi that builds on the legacy of the Soyuz rather than Buran or the US space shuttle.<br />
 
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gunsandrockets

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"He said that the Kliper launch vehicle, which Russia is to build in collaboration with other countries, would be able to carry a crew of six and land on first-class airfields. "<br /><br /><br />Hmmm...I'm probably reading too much into a simple press release but it seems to me the Russians have now choosen the landing method for the Kliper, which was undecided till now.<br /><br />I've seen two different methods proposed for landing the Kliper. One method was using parachutes combined with Soyuz-style rockets for a ground soft-landing. With the other method the Kliper was modified with stub double-delta wings and glided into landing on a standard runway with conventional landing gear Shuttle-style.<br /><br />I've heard the main reason for the winged landing proposal was to add appeal to European interests, particularly the French who were frustrated over the demise of the French Hermes spaceplane project. Very interesting.<br /><br />I wonder if the Kliper stub wings will have variable dihedral like the 1965 Spiral lifting-body/spaceplane?
 
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vt_hokie

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Seems ironic that NASA wants to regress to capsules while Russia is finally ready to replace capsules with a winged vehicle.
 
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chebby

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I see that kiliper will wait 14.5 tons. Someone mentioned in some other thread that an empty shuttle is 80 tons. Why is there such a huge difference? Is that because shuttle is meant to fly on landing and kliper is not? I wonder if shuttle was redesigned using modern materials, if it'd be possible to cut its weight by half...
 
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john_316

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<br />Honestly though I think the CEV will be flying way before Klipper even gets to the initial production phase...<br /><br />I think the Russians and Europeans can stick with Klipper like the ESA stuck with Hermes. <br /><br />Oh what became of that program as well? <br /><br />DOA <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <br /><br /><br />LOL<br /><br />
 
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gunsandrockets

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"I see that kiliper will wait 14.5 tons. Someone mentioned in some other thread that an empty shuttle is 80 tons. Why is there such a huge difference? Is that because shuttle is meant to fly on landing and kliper is not? I wonder if shuttle was redesigned using modern materials, if it'd be possible to cut its weight by half... "<br /><br />The latest estimates I have seen for the mass of the Kliper is 13 tonnes, but I think that was for the simple lifting body version not the winged version.<br /><br />The primary structural material of the Shuttle is aluminum, truly it is an 'aluminum overcast'! Modern materiels could reduce the weight of the Shuttle by a significant amount, but the real bulk of the Shuttle is from other causes. <br /><br />The Shuttle was designed to carry seven people with life support, 65,000 pounds of cargo, and three huge main engines. Around that must be wrapped enough structure, add enough orbital maneuvering rockets with propellent, add enough thermal protection system for reentry, add wings large enough for gliding, and finally landing gear large enough to support the whole weight upon touchdown. The very scale of the what Shuttle carries is ultimately what makes the white elephant so large.
 
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chebby

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<font color="yellow">The Shuttle payload is on the order of 50,000 pounds, the kiiper payload is more like 5,000 pounds.<br /></font><br />Oh, ic. I forgot about cargo <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> I guess CEV would be the corgoless version of the shuttle.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Honestly though I think the CEV will be flying way before Klipper even gets to the initial production phase... </font><br /><br />It'd be great if they could set it up to compete directly against each other. Is there a website for the CEV? I didn't see any threads on it.
 
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john_316

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I think they will have a nice websight soon after they release the 60 day report....<br /><br />I think we are all in for a surprise about the CEV!!!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I'll wager a billion or two stars on the CEV. Any takers?<br />
 
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shoogerbrugge

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*bump* <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />from spacedaily.com: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetravel-05zzzj.html<br /><br />_________________________<br /><br /><b>Russia To Exhibit New Kliper Spaceship</b><br />Aug 10, 2005<br /><br />during the MAKS international airspace show opening in Moscow next week, Perminov has said. Russian officials said Wednesday their country's new Kliper spaceship will never become an alternative to the U.S. space shuttles. The Novosti news agency Wednesday quoted Anatoly Perminov, director of the Russian Space Agency, as saying: "Kliper will not be able to become an alternative to the shuttles neither by amount of astronauts transported by the ship, nor by loading capacity. That is why the assumption made by the media that with Kliper, Russia will be able to stop using Space Shuttles is not true."<br /><br />Officials said Kliper is to replace the disposable Soyuz spacecraft that is currently used to supply the International Space Station. The main difference of the Kliper from the U.S. space shuttle project and the Russian shuttle Buran is that it is made of two parts and only the piloted compartment is capable of multiple uses. The hardware compartment is disposable, just as are current Russian spaceships. One Kliper spacecraft will be capable of 25 space missions, MosNews reported.<br /><br />
 
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shoogerbrugge

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Launch Vehicles for the Kliper.<br /><br />The Kliper vehicles, whatever version will be developed, will need a new Launch Vehicle (LV) to deliver it to Orbit. Intrestingly enough there are multiple options availeble, I’d like to make a run down of the various options. If you got something to add or correct, please do.<br /><br /><b>Zenit</b><br />My personal favorite is the Zenit 2. This proven system is up and running, enviromental friendly and has been adapted for various roles. What the Zenit has against is it origin and shaky safety record. Its currently being build in the Ukraine, and internationalism wasn’t such a hot topic among these two former Soviet Union states. In recent years a lot has been done to nationalise the space business by shlashing foreign suppliers. But hopefully the Kliper will make the RSA change its mind, since it might be an international project in the first place. <br />The Zenit has a LEO capacity of 13,500 kg when launched from Biakonour. The Kliper planned weight was changed recently from 14,500 kg to 13,000kg, this might be an indication that the Zenit is being considered. Now for safety, if you look at the recent use of the Zenit 2, it doesn’t look to good. 5 failures for the Zenit 2 since 1990, with the Globestar launch failure being the best known. There wasn’t really a clear line in what failed in the Zenit, and the origin of the disaster was traced back to both Ukrainian and Russian parts of the Booster. On the otherhand since the start of the Zenit 3SL Sea Launch programme the first two stages of the Zenit performed flawless in no less then 17 occasions. It was the Blcok DM third stage that posed problems twice.<br /><br /><b>Onega</b><br />Some people would like to see the Soyuz LV labour on in the form of the Onega. This would be the ultimate evolution of the R-7 ICBM. Its got a strong politcal backer in the form of Energia, who would like this LV because they will develop it. Another advantage that some of the excisting infrastruct
 
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syndroma

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Shoogerbrugge, good summary.<br /><br />The way I see it, the <b>Zenit</b> is not an option at all. The political climate is awful. Besides, Yuzhmash (manufacturer) might be sold to Boeing, resulting in unpredictable changes in pricing and availability. Too much uncertainty.<br /><br /><b>Ariane 5</b> is not man-rated, it was finally developed as a cargo-only lifter. It is too powerful and expensive.<br /><br /><b>Angara</b> (note the spelling) will fly earlier than the Kliper I believe. It's my personal favorite. Although I doubt Energia will agree to use Khrunichev's vehicle. After all, Khrunichev has some kind of manned ambitions too.<br /><br />And <b>Onega</b>, or some kind of Soyuz evolution, has more chances than any other LV. It has the advantage of multiple launch sites, it'll keep production lines and jobs occupied with Soyuz. But it is still brand new design and it will take time to prove it.<br /><br />I have a picture from recent ESA-RSA negotiations in Moscow where the head of the ESA is portrayed holding sheet of paper with Kliper presentation. This part of the picture can be zoomed and reveal some interesting information. Look.
 
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lunatio_gordin

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Wonder why he's holding it upside down...<br />It has both Kourou and Baikonour listed for launch sites. is that a good sign?
 
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gunsandrockets

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Very interesting information from that sheet<br /><br />I think what the sheet represents is the Russian offer to ESA, or what they think they can get ESA to go along with. I think the launch vehicle represents what Russia wants whereas the winged Kliper represents what the Russians think the ESA wants. A winged Kliper would give the French the spaceplane they have wanted since Hermes, but I think the ESA counter-offer will demand more from the Russians.<br /><br />The Russians may be able to tap the Europeans for money to develop and fly the Kliper but I don't think the Europeans will also budget money to develop an improved Russian launch vehicle. More likely, and the least expensive option, would be to fly a non-winged Kliper using the Ariane 5 launch vehicle.
 
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chriscdc

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Ok thanks. I thought they were pushed for mass. Do they want it to land like a plane now?
 
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teije

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Question:<br />On the pictures showing the aft part of the Kliper you can see something just below the docking ring. It consists of 9 rings in a flower like positioning. What is that? <br />Another question. The aft section looks detachable from the main craft. Is this a service module a bit like with the soyuz that will detach just before reentry and not be used again?<br /><br />Thnx adv.<br />Teije
 
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gunsandrockets

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"The aft section looks detachable from the main craft. Is this a service module a bit like with the soyuz that will detach just before reentry and not be used again?"<br /><br />Correct. The reentry vehicle portion of the Kliper has a mass of 8 to 9 tonnes compared to the overall Kliper mass of 13 to 14.5 tonnes.<br /><br />The disposable aft section of the Kliper contains both the service module and the orbital module. In fact the orbital module of the Kliper appears to be the very same spherical orbital module of the Soyuz, except that the Kliper wraps the service module like a donut around the outside of the orbital module. The orbital module contains the docking equipment, functions as the airlock, and adds 5 cubic meters of living space to the spacecraft.
 
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