Lunar Regolith question and moonbase proposal

[flyer456654]

OK so I am new here so be nice?

I envision insitu resource utilization to develop a moonbase in 4 launches. This would drastically reduce the price to establish the moonbase. The question I have about lunar regolith is at what temperature it turns into glass? If it can be turned into glass I believe that 4 launches would be sufficient to develop the structure and power supply to the moonbase (no life support). I envision a 3-pronged attack to develop the moonbase, with the fourth being actual human beings. This will involve 3 robots (type A, type B, and type C) and a solar panel farm.

Robot A will be a oven robot with minimal sensors (just cameras). Its job will be to create the glass beams and panels for use on the moonbase. It will be designed with rollers as wheels (think rolling pin), an oven box (changeable size to allow for creation of beams and panels. The beams will have a specific area for the panels and a connection point for other beams. It will also have a lip on the interior side and exterior side to allow for robot type B's movements. Robot A will produce a panel and push it out in front of it (creating a runway and a regolith free area directly in front). It will then roll out onto that panel (protecting its rollers). It will then use articulated metal joints to extend a plow with a conveyor belt. The belt takes the regolith into the regolith holding area, which then drops the regolith into the oven when enough has been collected ensuring uniform and quality glass. It will then heat up the regolith producing the glass beam or panel. This will then be ejected behind it to robot type B.

Robot type B will be a transportation robot. It will have laser guided movements that allow precision. It will take the glass product to robot type C and place the glass into robot type C's construction area with absolute precision. It will also have a small deposit area for regolith storage and transfer this amount to robot type C.

Robot type C, then places the panel into the beam recess created for it, then it places a line of regolith on the seam and fires this to create a glass seam (think welding). This will create an air tight seal. Now robot C will lock into the beams on a rail (remember that robot A created this rail specifically for robot C). This will allow robot C to acurately place the panels in the right area. Rinse and repeat until sides and a roof are created in a crater or hole. The solar farm will provide power by way of teathering.

Also robot A will begin its operations from directly next to the construction site (creating a road for robot B in the process, also to protect against regolith). I believe that robot A would be the largest robot (and the one requiring the most power) and thus should include personal solar panels for its use. I think that 5ft by 5ft panel and a 5ft by 1 ft beam would be sufficient, so robot A would have to be approx 10ft by 10ft to facilitate everything. Robot B could be small with an emphisis on power and precision (not so much anything else). I think that a 3 by 3 robot would be sufficient. Robot C could also be small, with an emphisis on holding power and stability. I believe that a light (emphisis on light due to it being stationed on the glass structure) 4 by 4 would be suffient for this. None of the figures have anything behind them, just the fact that they could be small. I believe the robots would take 2 seperate launches (robot A in one, robot B and C in the other). The solar panel farm would have to use 2 launches (one for the actual panels and another for robots to connect power cables and other things to the panels.)

So in bullet form

1) generate building material (glass materials)
2) move the material
3) create the air tight structure using glass seams

What does everyone think? Is this feasible? Is this revolutionary lol? Any ideas on how to better it? Just figured I would put the thought out there.

 

[flyer456654]

OK so people are viewing the topic but no one is replying with any suggestions on comments.

I have one that i just realized, Glass sucks as a radiation shield. But I do have a solution for this, double pane and fill the interior with water (hopefully harvested onsite). This wouldn't be difficult if the development is in one of those crazy holes they just found (limiting where they have to put the water to the top of the whole since the regolith on the outside will provide the coverage for the rest of the area). This also means that structural supports will have to be placed in long beams to the bottom of the hole (also solveable with the above robot designs). All power would have to be teathered but the initial power would have to be supplied with internal batteries to set up the teather (eliminating the power issue inside the hole). If the hole is small enough it might be possible to bring water up with each launch to be placed in by the robot 2 design.

 

[SteveCNC]

I viewed it from work but during break it's difficult to really do any decent reply

I was curious myself of the chemical composition of lunar regolith , though I don't think it's quite as simple as heating it up and out comes glass unless your refferring to Trinitite as a type of glass . It may be possible with the use of acids and energy to seperate it down to more usable stuff like H3 and SO2 and not sure what else it depends what it's made of . Anyone have a link to the chemical break down for lunar regolith ?

I actually started wondering about that question a couple weeks ago when I read about one of the centenial prizes going untouched that wanted someone to invent a way to make breathable oxygen from regolith and I thought how odd that some chemestry major hadn't worked out the reaction chain . I only took first year chem in college so we worked with chains but not complex ones though we did look at some . So maybe there's more to the regolith than I'm aware of . I would venture a bet that if someone can work out the reaction chain to get O2 out of regolith you could be rich but hopefully you can work out the sequence to recycle the acids .

 

[flyer456654]

I believe that if things got hot enough in the oven there would be a molten state of the regolith. If the regolith becomes molten then it can be formed. I don't know what it would create but perhaps heat (at high enough temperatures) would be hot enough to form the structure. I have to admit, I am in finance so I know very little about chemistry or other science related tasks. I just think about how to lower the cost and make it feasible in our lifetime. I read recently a business plan to use land grants to pay for the initial creation of a moonbase. According to law the person (or corporation) that places a permenant base on the moon is entitled to 400,000 acres on the moon. If this was leased for varying amounts (based on the three L's location location location) at minimum it would sustain a $40,000,000 a year cash inflow ($100x400,000). Now with raising rates on prime locations and such you could probably milk $400,000,000 a year in cash flows just from the land grants. So, basing it simply on the lower number (i know i would lease an acre on the moon for $100 bucks) it means that a corporation has to build a structure on the moon for $400,000,000 (give or take a few million) and can expect a Return on investment in roughly 15 years (taking into account interest). There is also a cool thing that could occur with the resupply missions. Perhaps sell equipment (camera's, rovers and anything else costumers want) and place these objects on the land owners property. Would you pay a couple thousand dollars for your own personal telescope on the far side of the moon? If it averaged out that for every 1 acre, $500 in equipment shippings occured, there would be an additional $200,000,000 in cashflow. These numbers do not take into account resupply missions (which Nasa, Europe, and Asian space agencies would probably help with). In otherwords, an entity would need to develop, launch, and build a moonbase for $400,000,000. Using Spacex's falcon 9 launcher and a small ion engine to propel, that means that the corporation would have about 6 launches to place objects on the moon and build the base, and one launch to place humans on the moon. If two launches were used to place robots that could build the base then the next 4 could be used for equipment to prepare the base for human beings. This also allows for $50,000,000 in development costs for the robots and operating expenses (though operating expenses should be a minimum requiring a small team to operate the 3 robots.) The biggest restraint we would have would be the weight. SpaceX (to reach geosync orbit) has a payload of 5 tons so the robot, ion engine, and decent equipment would have to weigh less than 5 tons fully loaded with fuel. This is a difficult task to say the least, but not one that is impossible. Basically, if a structually sound material can be made by simply heating regolith, than building a profitable moonbase is absolutely possible in today's terms and equipment. Afterall, isn't there 400,000 people out there willing to pay $100-$1000 a year for ownership of an acre of the moon.

(By the way, I got into a very serious conversation about this with my girlfriend over the weekend. She had a very good point that I wanted to bring up here. The moon can be seen from earth (BIG SURPRISE haha) and as such has been seen as a beautiful thing forever. People look up at the man on the moon and some find comfort, others find god, and others see possibility. My position on the matter is nothing should be in the way of progress, meaning that nothing should be off limits for development, but she made an excellant point, "Why would we want to deface the moon?" It got me thinking. What if we totally ruined the image of the moon with bases and structures? I mean progress would be there but it would ruin the beauty of the moon for everyone. I guess my question is: Should we develop an internation treaty that denies any country's ability to deface the earth facing side of the moon? I totally see NO problem with developing the dark side of the moon (cue pink floyd here), but should the virus that is humanity really deface the earth side of the moon in the name of progress? Thoughts anyone?)

And please excuse the misspellings here, I am a number's guy not an english major

 

[neilsox]

Pure sand = silicon dioxide makes a very good transparent glass (sometimes called quartz glass) but regolith may only be 30% silicon dioxide. Most of the other 70% will make the glass weak and opaque, but a reasonably good radiation shield. It may not be much stronger than adobe = dried mud, sometimes with straw added. This is especially true if only heated to 1000 degrees c = 1832 f as the melting point of silicon dioxide is 1723 c. Some of the stuff in the regolith will melt, decompose and/or vaporize at 1000 degrees c. Separating the silicon dioxide is moderately complicated. Common glass also has calcium oxide and sodium oxide in much larger quantities than typical in regolith. Neil

 

[Gravity_Ray]

Well lunar regolith is basically glass. It’s been pounded by million years of bombardment and due to no atmosphere its basically very small sharp glass fragments.

I wouldn’t use regolith in the way your envisioning flyer. Here is how I would use it. By the way I think I have a post somewhere where I talk about the first Moon base and some of this stuff is there.

First break down of lunar regolith.
The most valuable thing in the lunar regolith long term (as far as I am concerned is helium 3). Next it’s Hydrogen.

Oxygen 40% Silicon 20% Iron 12% Calcium 8.5% Aluminum 7.3% Magnesium 4.8%
Titanium 4.5% Sodium 0.33% Chromium 0.2% Manganese 0.16% Potassium 0.11%
Sulfur 540 ppm Carbon 200 ppm Nitrogen 100 ppm Hydrogen 40 ppm Helium 4 28ppm Helium 3 0.01 ppm

Since about 100 million tons of regolith must be heated to about 1400 deg. F to get one ton of helium 3; 4000 tons of hydrogen; 2800 tons of helium 4; 10,000 tons of nitrogen; 20,000 tons of carbon and 54,000 tons of sulfur will also be obtained.

So my thought is that a simple solar farm maybe good, but you really need a nuclear electric engine to make enough heat to deal with this kind of work. An RTG would be ideal.

So I like your proposal to start the lunar base with robots only. Once a good location is determined then the robots will land there to begin the work. In the past I used to think that a good place would be a permanent lighted area near one of the poles, but since they discovered a goodly amount of water on the moon, I think a good place would be near a large hydrogen cache where ever that is.

So the robots landed will start collecting the regolith and bringing it to a furnace will it will be heated to 1400 degrees Fahrenheit and all the various volatiles will be collected in various tanks. Helium 3 will be stored for later use. The ocygen and hydrogen can be used for air and fuel. The silicon, Iron, Aluminum, and Titanium can be converted for use in building the base.

The base at this point should be built underground if possible. Either use a lunar tunnel that is already there, or make one. Surface bases will have to deal with shielding and temperature swings that make it harder to sustain a base.

I wouldn’t make the base from glass, there is plenty of metal there to make the base, but it would be great to make some glass for skylights to bring in light for people and plants.

 

[Gravity_Ray]

Also as you can see because nitrogen is almost nonexistent, lunar regolith is nearly useless as growing soil. I know some scientist call it lunar soil, but I refuse to. Soil needs to have a biological component to be called soil.

So to grow things on this base you need to import nitrogen. Maybe from the Jovian system or something else. But for sure the first things growing on a base will use hydroponics until enough biological matter is collected to start making actual soil.

 

[flyer456654]

GravityRay,
I would TOTAL use the regolith as you are saying. The most valuable resource is HE-3. But I see one major issue that is impossible to overcome. In order to hold all the material you just said (roughtly 100,000 tons) you would need MASSIVE storage tanks. The shear weight of these tanks is enough to be prohibitive. There would have to be a way for a small robot to create a HUGE facitility using ISRU. So, i guess glass was a bad way to put it. Will simply heating regolith to a high temporature be enough to liquify it? Also, will a rapid cooling cause the regolith to become a solid?

I do agree with two points you make. Solar energy is simply not enough to get the heat needed, a small nuclear reactor is absolutely needed for the furnace robot. The other is the underground development. I think that we should use the robots in my idea (though still not sure if it will work) to essentially close up an exisiting lunar tube that is near a hydrogen cache. I also got to thinking of the whole radiation sheilding. Why not seal the lunar tunnel (a top and walls that go down to the floor) then just simply pile some regolith on top? The bulk of the base would be underground and only the ceiling would be on the surface, so covering the ceiling would be fairly easy. Just some thoughts

 

[JeffreyNYA]

This was interesting:

http://www.isruinfo.com/docs/microwave_ ... r_soil.pdf

 

[flyer456654]

Well, that just makes my idea actually work! if I am reading the above article correctly, then heating lunar regolith with a microwave will create a solid (albeit not strong solid but a solid none the less). Am I reading that correctly?

 

[Quantum11]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7011322.ece

I guess this makes this discussion a moot point.

http://community.mae.pennnet.com/forum/topics/nasa-needs-space-radiation

"Both astronauts and hardware are at risk from the space radiation environment. This is a problem that all space agencies will have to solve for interplanetary space travel."


Of course this I found interesting.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/08sep_radioactivemoon/

I suppose the first order of business for any possible trip to the moon, is that pesky radiation problem?

Or as they close the article:

"With such knowledge in hand, scientists can begin designing spacesuits, lunar habitats, Moon vehicles, and other equipment for NASA's return to the Moon knowing exactly how much radiation shielding this equipment must have to keep humans safe. "

You'll notice they said BEGIN desiging space suits, etc...

 

[flyer456654]

The radiation problem can be mitigated by using regolith to bury the structure or enclosed crater. Yes, this will still be a problem for outside the encloser missions but that can be mitigated by going during minimum radiation times. Regolith is a fairly decent radiation sheild, I believe I read somewhere that 6 inches would be enough to stop most radiation. I cannot look this up right now (government computers have a crazy firewall) but a simple google search should let you find out this. Radiation is one of the primary problems of space travel, but for the moon the "stickiness" of the regolith is also a problem. Heck, even the availability of nitrogen to grow food is a massive issue. The only thing you can do with these issues are mitigate them because you will never fully get rid of them.

On the stickiness of regolith...would a charge of electricity possibly repel the regolith? We know that regolith is electrically charged so wouldn't an opposite charge push the regolith away?

 

[neilsox]

Some plants can survive in soil with only 200 parts per million of available nitrogen, so likely most of the nitrogen fertilizer needed can be produced from regolith if we think hydroponics. I suspect that much of the nitrogen is not a suitable compound to nourish plants = not available. Worse, some of the compounds in regolith are likely toxic to most plants. Some of the compounds in regolith likely won't give up their volatiles at 1400 f, but perhaps that is a minor problem.

 

[Gravity_Ray]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7011322.ece

I guess this makes this discussion a moot point.

http://community.mae.pennnet.com/forum/topics/nasa-needs-space-radiation

"Both astronauts and hardware are at risk from the space radiation environment. This is a problem that all space agencies will have to solve for interplanetary space travel."


Of course this I found interesting.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/08sep_radioactivemoon/

I suppose the first order of business for any possible trip to the moon, is that pesky radiation problem?

Or as they close the article:

"With such knowledge in hand, scientists can begin designing spacesuits, lunar habitats, Moon vehicles, and other equipment for NASA's return to the Moon knowing exactly how much radiation shielding this equipment must have to keep humans safe. "

You'll notice they said BEGIN desiging space suits, etc...

Do us all a favor and don’t quote Dick Shelby to us, that man speaks with a forked tongue.

Radiation is not a problem for a Moon base. Space radiation is more of a problem for a Mars trip. Traveling to the Moon will only take days, not months. In those days the radiation you will get is mitigated with your space ship. Furthermore as the Moon base is developed underground the people there will be under no radiation threat whatsoever. Doing work on the surface can be kept to a certain amount of time that will mitigate any radiation threat.

I am very glad that NASA is not going to build simple rockets anymore. They are doing the right thing now by supporting private enterprise to make these rockets for them. SpaceX and Orbital Sciences have plenty of experience and actual hardware to get the job to supply the ISS with supplies and as they make these trips they will both work on improving their rockets to carry humans to LEO.

Once in LEO a trip to the Moon is very easy (you are most of the way there already). We can put together a couple of modules (I would love to see some Bigelow modules used in this instance) and make a very quick trip to the Moon. A base can actually be built in orbit of the Moon and the whole thing landed in a depression on the Moon and then covered over with regolith for a temporary base, while a bigger base is built in a Moon tunnel under ground.

Most of this work can be done with robots which will make radiation shielding a moot point.

The NASA RATS have already demonstrated vehicles and space suites for a Moon base that are much further along that anybody seems to know.

A combination of robots, ISRU, and later astronauts flown there in private space ships will make a Moon base a reality much faster than that pipe dream called the Constellation Project which was basically pork for Shelby.

 

[orionrider]

Do you have any idea how glass is made? I mean, the flat panels used in construction?

Glass is flat because it actually floats on a bed of molten metal, requiring HUGE quantities of energy to warm up and HUGE quantities of water to cool down.

You probably could make bricks or panels out of regolith, but it would be easier and much cheaper to mix the stuff with 'imported' polyurethane or resin in order to process it cold.

If you had access to large quantities of water ice you could easily build a recessed igloo, covered with lightweight insulation materials. Ice is easy to process and transport. It is strong and self-sealing. There is permafrost everywhere on the Moon (-20°C at 1m depth) so you won't have to dig very deep. Heat exchange is another matter, but it could be done.

However, the biggest problem on the Moon is not building materials, it's abrasion caused by the very sharp dust. Industrial robots would fail rapidly.

 

[Beanze]

I have a question about radiation for you guys.

Think magnets. If you try to press negative against positive magnets, they sorta push each other away. Can't you do that with particles, using another sort of complicated (too complex for me to describe) device to this kind of dangerous radiation away from the ship using layers of whatever material that would be? I know particles can penetrate literally ... or nearly anything.. everything. It just came to me that if anyone invented such a device we'd be able to skip past the radiation problem, and onto the next phase beyond it. I've only heard about matter/antimatter, but doesn't most of particles have an evil sister? They annihilate each other on contact. Couldn't this be used somehow? It really bugs me that every single time I read a topic, or a news-story about exploration, this radiation problem seems to be in the way of literally everything outside of our magnetic field. Sigh.

Beanze out, sorry for the stupid ideas but I'm simple minded. I like it that way

 

[orionrider]

The Earth's geomagnetic field actually protects us from harmful radiations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_magnetic_field
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Allen_radiation_belt

However, I don't know of any portable device that could be used to duplicate the effect in deep space.

 

[Gravity_Ray]

I have a question about radiation for you guys.

Think magnets. If you try to press negative against positive magnets, they sorta push each other away. Can't you do that with particles, using another sort of complicated (too complex for me to describe) device to this kind of dangerous radiation away from the ship using layers of whatever material that would be? I know particles can penetrate literally ... or nearly anything.. everything. It just came to me that if anyone invented such a device we'd be able to skip past the radiation problem, and onto the next phase beyond it. I've only heard about matter/antimatter, but doesn't most of particles have an evil sister? They annihilate each other on contact. Couldn't this be used somehow? It really bugs me that every single time I read a topic, or a news-story about exploration, this radiation problem seems to be in the way of literally everything outside of our magnetic field. Sigh.

Beanze out, sorry for the stupid ideas but I'm simple minded. I like it that way

http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/ ... Buhler.pdf

This study maybe a bit too detail for your question. But the simple answer to your question is yes we can build a shield to repel solar storms. Basically its a high voltage (but low current) system of conductive coated polymers (gold for example) for spherical balloons. This could be used on a larger space ship, or a Moon base. However, the best way to protect on a Moon base will be to go underground. A small layer of regolith will be excellent protection.

 

[csmyth3025]

I suspect that the first lunar work camps will be rudimentary. I think the most likely configuration will be a series of delivered habitats similar to the inflatable Bigelow habitats. Ideally, these would be robotically joined together and tested for structural and systems integrity before the arrival of the lunatechs. Whether this can actually be done depends on developing our ability to construct and control robotic vehicles and mechanisms that are up to the task. Failing this, it will be up to the first people to arrive to complete this task (risky business).

If the inflatable habitats are maintained at the same pressure as the ISS (1 atm - 14.7 psi), they should be able to support the weight of loose regolith piled up around and over them to a sufficient depth to provide radiation and micrometeorite protection and, perhaps, thermal stability if the habitat is situated in an area exposed to direct sunlight. Covering the habitats is also one of those thing best done robotically, if possible.

Lunar soil has an average bulk density of either 1.58 tonnes/meter^3 or 1.74 tonnes/meter^3 (on Earth) to a depth of 30cm (~1 ft). Both figures are cited by my source for this tidbit of information, which can be found here:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/a.buckley/soildata.htm

1.58 tonnes=1.58 metric tons=~3476 lbs. 1 meter^3=(39.37 in)^3=~61,023 in^3. The area of the base=(39.37 in)^2=~1550 in^2. Dividing 3476 lbs by 1550 in^2=the weight (on Earth) of a 39.37 in. column of lunar soil=~2.24 lbs/in^2. Since the gravity on the moon is ~16.7% of the gravity on Earth (per Wikipedia), this 1 meter depth will actually "press down" on the habitat with a weight of [(2.24 lb/in^2)x(0.167)]=~0.37 lb/in^2.

If my calculation is correct, an inflatable habitat should easily support the (lunar) weight of 10 meters (~33 ft) of lunar soil - even if the higher cited density for lunar soil is used for the calculation.

Once the work camp is established, more permanent living arrangements - perhaps in a lava tube, or in an excavated "cave" with hardened walls lined to ensure air-tightness - can be constructed.

Chris

 

[orionrider]

lunar work camps

:shock: Does not sound like a nice place to be... :lol:
Instead of being sent to the camps, I'd rather work at the 'Moon Processing Facility'

 

[csmyth3025]

lunar work camps

:shock: Does not sound like a nice place to be... :lol:
Instead of being sent to the camps, I'd rather work at the 'Moon Processing Facility'

I've always thought that when the exploitation of space begins in earnest the living arrangements of mining and processing facilities would be similar in character (if not in detail) to those depicted in the movie "Outland" with Sean Connery. This movie was, essentially, "High Noon" set in outer space. I thought they did a good job of realistically showing a "working" space facility. It was a good movie, too.

It just goes to show you that those classic plot lines will never die.

Chris