Making a launch vehicle

[spacy600]

Can you make a launch vehicle out of <br />Carbon fiber and composite material?<br /><br />I know SS1 &2 are and airplanes are made of the stuff.<br /><br />What about the Atlas, Delta, soyuz, and other rockets?

 

[halman]

spacy600,<br /><br />No launch vehicle could be made entirely from carbon fiber and composites, because of the temperatures involved in storing liquid oxygen, which is the most common oxidizer, and the temperatures of combustion. However, it is certainly possible to build a vehicle with a super lightweight frame made of carbon and composites. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

 

[spacy600]

ok, say 80% <br /><br />Are any being built that way now?<br />any plans to try?<br /><br />I know rocket designers are a conservative lot, and <br />hate to see new parts fail.<br /><br />Anything in the pipeline?

 

[venator_3000]

The optical bench of the Chandra X-Ray telescope is the largest composit metering structure ever built. it is a tube about 8 m in length that has very special thermal properties to minimize expansion and contraction in space (very critical for a telescope).<br /><br />There have been papers and even patents filed to the use of ceramic composites for thrust chambers and engine components in rockets. In the AIAA journal I remember reading an article about the Brazilian space program. They were looking into using composite cases for solid rocket motors as opposed to metal ones. I think the article was looking at sounding rockets.<br /><br />Composites would certainly be a light weight and strong alternative to metals. Also, in terms of reliability, after manufacture and set-up at a launch pad they only have to endure for several minutes, not years. <br /><br />Maybe something on the near horizon?<br /><br />v3k <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[baktothemoon]

The X-33 space shuttle replacement was going to have composite fuel tanks, but they failed pressure testing causing the project to be cancelled.

 

[propforce]

Geez Newsie, you're becoming quite a rocket scientist! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Yes, ASRM was the program that planned for a production in Mississippi. Sadly the program was abruptly canceled several week after the untimely death of then Mississippi senator, and strongest proponent of ASRM <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[propforce]

<font color="yellow">No launch vehicle could be made entirely from carbon fiber and composites...</font><br /><br />Does anyone remember Andrew Beale and his "big-dumb-booster" concept? I wonder if it was made out of composite?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[earth_bound_misfit]

Umm, how about paper <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br />News.com.au article <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------- </p><p>Wanna see this site looking like the old SDC uplink?</p><p>Go here to see how: <strong>SDC Eye saver </strong>  </p> </div>

 

[scottb50]

Composites would allow a much lighter tank then available now. My idea has been a thin wall filament wound tube and an outer framework providing both structural strength and attachment points.<br /><br />The winding could be placed over any number of cores, an extremely thin Stainless Steel tank with the filament wound around it would be most efficient for containing Hydrogen gas as an example. Change the inner structure to Carbon/fiber and it would make a super strong housing for an SRB. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bdewoody]

I know it's not orbital but a good portion of Rutan's space vehicles are made of carbon fiber aren't they? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[webtaz99]

Years ago, when I was still receiving NASA Tech Briefs, I recall seeing an article about a team that built nozzles for sounding-type rockets by winding carbon-carbon on a spindle. The machine they used for winding fit easily on a tabletop. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[halman]

shuttle_guy,<br /><br />I have heard that carbon construction has the potential to be stronger than steel. However, a lot depends on the molecular structure of the carbon. Just as diamonds are made of carbon, carbon nanotubes require perfect alignment of all carbon atoms in a lattice to achieve the maximum potential strength.<br /><br />One of the most advanced applications of carbon construction that I am aware of are the Volvo Ocean 70 sailboats, which are built entirely of carbon. Through the use of a 'canting keel', which is swung through an arc of almost 45 degrees, depending on the wind direction relative to the boat's heading, speeds of 35 knots were achieved during the last Volvo Round the World Race. (35 knots equals about 42 miles per hour.) Although several of the boats experienced delamination, all but one survived the race. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

 

[qso1]

propforce:<br />Does anyone remember Andrew Beale and his "big-dumb-booster" concept? I wonder if it was made out of composite?<br /><br />Me:<br />http://astronautix.com/lvs/searagon.htm<br /><br />The only BDB I'm aware of was proposed in the early 1960s and composite construction of spacecraft was not yet technically feasible. The BDB emphasized low cost operation as well and rugged design which means the builders would probably have opted for steel or aluminum construction.<br /><br />Even today, steel or aluminum for something as gargantuan as the BDB was to have been, would probably be a better choice cost wise than composites.<br /><br />I googled Andrew Beale BDB and found the following link:<br /><br />http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/bealba2.htm<br /><br />I don't think they ever actually manufactured the rocket and according to the link, he dropped the idea in 2000 due to the loss of the market he was targeting. It does appear that the propellant tanks would have been manufactured from composite materials. The Beale BDB concept was much smaller than the proposed Sea Dragon concept. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[propforce]

Thanks qso1. I recalled his concept uses composite but wasn't sure how extensive.<br /><br />I think we will use more and more composite in building <i>new</i> launch vehicles, just as we are using it more in aircrafts and automobiles. As technology matures, we get more confident about its strength & reliability.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[areslite]

There actually is a company that is working with composites in the launch vehicle arena, although they're a small group and have yet to get enough funding to completely achieve their goals; I think they've flown smaller rockets however. They've built a composite LOX tank, and I even think their low cost engine may be crafted using the material, so clearly they've made progress in those fields. I think they're into the whole minimal cost design philosophy, and the material choice is a factor toward that, no doubt.<br /><br />Microcosm: http://www.smad.com/ns/nsframessr3.html<br />Composite Tank: http://www.smad.com/scorpius/lowcost/tanks.html

 

[halman]

AresLite,<br /><br />Thank you for the link.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

 

[qso1]

propforce:<br />I think we will use more and more composite in building new launch vehicles, just as we are using it more in aircrafts and automobiles. As technology matures, we get more confident about its strength & reliability.<br /><br />Me:<br />And the possibility of developing new composites. I agree, this will be the way to go especially if private industry takes over the LEO access portion of human spaceflight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[earth_bound_misfit]

What? No comments on my link above? (did anyone read it?) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------- </p><p>Wanna see this site looking like the old SDC uplink?</p><p>Go here to see how: <strong>SDC Eye saver </strong>  </p> </div>

 

[vulture2]

It takes a certain amount of audacity to build a paper airplane to be thrown from the space station. Realistically, the chance of one being found and returned is negligible so I doubt it would serve any purpose. It would be nice to see some experiments with controlled re-entry of light vehicles with large surface area to see if high temperatures and the need for heat shielding can be avoided, but I'm not aware of any serious plans. It wouldn't take a very large vehicle, but there would have to be some mechanism for deorbit and stabilization.

 

[eniac]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>It takes a certain amount of audacity to build a paper airplane to be thrown from the space station. Realistically, the chance of one being found and returned is negligible so I doubt it would serve any purpose. It would be nice to see some experiments with controlled re-entry of light vehicles with large surface area to see if high temperatures and the need for heat shielding can be avoided, but I'm not aware of any serious plans. It wouldn't take a very large vehicle, but there would have to be some mechanism for deorbit and stabilization.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Drag should be sufficient to deorbit in a number of months if simply thrown by hand. A well built paper plane is capable of stable flight and will not need active stabilization. A passive microwave reflector, made from aluminum foil like an RFID antenna, could be used for tracking. <br /><br />I even think it would not get hot at all, because in stable flight there will be an equilibrium such that lift is equal to weight and drag is a fraction of lift. Lift/drag at hypersonic speed is around 5/1, and weight is low, so drag is very low and would not generate much heat despite the high speed.<br /><br />I think this is a very cool idea.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>