Mars Attack!

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zavvy

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<b>Red Planet Under Fire In Proposed Mission</b><br /><br />LINK<br /><br />Scientists have had a smashing idea that could help them explore beneath Mars's dusty surface. Slamming a hefty chunk of copper into the planet should excavate enough material to reveal water ice or carbon-based chemicals lurking underground, according to a proposed NASA mission.<br /><br />The idea follows the success of Deep Impact, a mission that fired a copper 'impactor' into comet Tempel 1, while its delivery craft recorded the whole show with an array of sensors (see 'Deep Impact: sifting through the debris').<br /><br />The new mission takes exactly the same approach to Mars. Called THOR (Tracing Habitability, Organics and Resources), it would be the second of NASA's Mars scout missions, low-cost probes that are designed and built in just a few years. The first scout, Phoenix, is due to launch in August 2007.<br /><br />THOR has been proposed by Phil Christensen, a planetary scientist at Arizona State University, Tempe, and David Spencer of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. <br /><br />Christensen estimates that the impactor should be about 100 kilograms or so, and hit the planet at more than 15,000 kilometres per hour. It is hoped this would make a crater roughly 50 metres in diameter, and up to 25 metres deep.<br /><br />Meanwhile, its mother ship would look for ice, minerals and organic compounds thrown out by the crash. <br /><br />A cunning plan<br /><br />Christensen admits that it is a simple enough approach. "I guess there'll be a lot of people out there going, 'Why didn't I think of that'," laughs Christensen. But that simplicity should help to ensure the mission's success, he adds.<br /><br />Keeping two rovers running around on Mars is a tremendous feat of engineering, but sending something that can burrow or drill is even more challenging, Christensen points out.<br /><br />Moreover, expl
 
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henryhallam

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Would be great to do this shortly before dropping a rover close by. Actually, having the rover there already to record the impact on video would be fantastic but they'd have to be awfully confident in the targetting accuracy!
 
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zavvy

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I wonder if the current rovers will still be going? They were only designed to last 90 days. Have you heard anything recently about Deep Impact? They're very slow at getting their data out..
 
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mikejz

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What is the different the effect, vs. Just setting off an explosive charge?
 
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centsworth_II

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They will be looking for "ice, minerals and organic compounds thrown out by the crash". A bomb contains plenty of organic compounds. How would they know which ones came from the bomb and which were present on Mars? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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summoner

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Good point about using explosives. Although I would use iron instead of copper for a penetrator. We already know that there is a pile of iron there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <br /><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:271px;background-color:#FFF;border:1pxsolid#999"><tr><td colspan="2"><div style="height:35px"><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/htmlSticker1/language/www/US/MT/Three_Forks.gif" alt="" height="35" width="271" style="border:0px" /></div>
 
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mikejz

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The copper is to avoid contamination. I agree that explosives might contaminant---I don't know much about explosives however, i would assume that there are some variants out there that would not contaminate the crater. <br /><br />Also, this approach would allow for observations from the ground and possibility from the close up inspection of a rover, compared to observations several 100 miles away from a spacecraft.
 
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henryhallam

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<font color="yellow"><br />What is the different the effect, vs. Just setting off an explosive charge?<br /></font><br /><br />For one thing, it's cheaper and easier. A 100kg projectile moving at 15000km/h has kinetic energy equivalent to exploding 200kg of TNT. And copper is much easier to handle than TNT when it comes to transportation on Earth, loading into a spacecraft, launch (range safety) etc. You don't have to brake it into Mars orbit or use a TPS, aeroshell + parachutes to land it on the surface. Just point and shoot!
 
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centsworth_II

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<font color="yellow">"We already know that there is a pile of iron there."</font><br /><br />Yes, and they'd like to study its abundance at the site in its various forms. Throwing a load of Earth iron into the mix would sure screw that up! <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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bushuser

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Well, that may be true...but the cheap and dirty way to accomplish this is to crash into Mars whatever 3rd stage booster is used for the mission , instead aiming it to bypass the planet. It would have to weigh several tons, even empty. I wonder if it is worthwhile to set up a few seismometers on Mars before crashing a large object?
 
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mikejz

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The issue would be that a upper stage is basically a hollowed shell, and except for the engine bell, would come apart in reentry. The engine might survive to make an impact, but I get the killer part would being able to predict its exact impact point.
 
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najab

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*Obligatory Joke*<br /><br />What, again? MPL and Beagle 2 weren't enough? <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />
 
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chriscdc

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Exactly, we don't know what sort of carbon molecules might form if you use TNT in the martian environment. The products would definately screw up your ability to say for certain whether that spectral line is due to a native source of carbon ,eg a fried martian microbe, or the carbon molecules from the explosion.
 
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thinice

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<i>What, again? MPL and Beagle 2 weren't enough?</i><br />On the contrary, from those two examples we know that it is going to crash on the ground anyway. So why bother with expensive scientific payload? Let's make it dumb pig iron and impact in a controlled fashion. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />
 
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telfrow

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As was noted in the other thread (I posted it in SS & A by mistake <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" />) the funding extension for MGS runs out in September of 2006. And we have two rovers on the surface that may make it until then. Why wait? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>
 
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thinice

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It may be interesting. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Has MGS fuel to retrofire? As to the rovers, I personally doubt they could jump high enough to make a deep impact. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />
 
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telfrow

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The MGS, IIRC, runs out of propellant in 2010. The funding is up for another extension in September of 2006. If the funding is not extended, it might have enough propellant for a major orbital adjustment. The problem would be bringing it down close enough to Spirit or Oppy to make it feasible for them to reach the impact site - but far enough away they wouldn't be damaged by debris. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>
 
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scottb50

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I would think if the can throw away a booster, by using a dummy payload, something like an impactor or maybe even a group of impactors could be done pretty cheaply. Maybe some of the test tanks and such could be found. <br /><br />The problem is, I doubt a Rover could get that close to the impact sites, they seem to be going pretty good, but they also point out numerous areas where we need to re-think Rover's. Probably get a lot of pictures from orbit though. I suppose if we can't get to Mars we might as well support Rovers, thats better than hit and run flag waving missions, at least. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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centsworth_II

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You all are forgetting something. The impactor mission is to be specifically aimed at a site that is thought to have ice just beneath the surface. Niether of the rover sites meets this requirement. <br /><br />Bonneville crater at Spirit's site is much deeper than any man-made impact crater could be and it failed to dig through the rubble of Gusev crater. Opportunity has already been in a deeper crater than a man-made impact could make -- Endurance -- and is within reach of a much larger crater -- Victoria. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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john_316

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Ok! Heres my 2 cents worth....<br /><br />What if the Martians decide to hit us with a copper penetrator too? Like giving us a ram you know where.....<br /><br />I mean this could cause serious consequences. The Martians might retaliate by using Nukes if we keep littering their pristine rock garden with our spacecraft, rovers, probes, and junk you know.<br /><br />Now I'm kinda worried about the nuclear rover we propose to send in 2009. What if they decide to do some serious retalitary moves. They might dislodge the moon or something and hit us where it counts permenately....<br /><br />Oh geez I brought up the Nuklar thing again. Sorry Dubya!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />
 
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scottb50

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They're Al Quada Martians! I think the only rational thing to do is immediately enact Patriot Act Ultra. But at least have Halliburton on retainer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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