Mars Sample Return Mission?

[robnissen]

Space. com has an article promoting a Martian sample return mission. While I would love for NASA to do a sample return misstion, is it really necessary? It seems to me, that it would be much cheaper to fly a fully equipped lab to Mars, then to leave the lab on Earth and bring the samples back to the lab. I would assume if you gave Jon Clarke a lab on Mars that he could test samples on via robotically controlled equipment, he could do almost as much science as if the samples were on Earth. Now, I realize that the bigger the lab, the more expensive it would be take to Mars, but a one-way trip for the lab, must be a LOT cheaper, than a round trip for the samples. Am I missing something? For example, are there important tests that can only be done on Earth because the equipment is just too bulky to put in a martian lander. I have wondered about this for a long time and would appreciate any comments that people might have.

 

[JonClarke]

The problem is that that to do a full battery of tests on Mars is well beyond the capability of even the most advanced lander. Consider that the MERs carried out 6 experiments and cost $400 million. The MSL will cost $1.2 billion and perform a dozen experiments. But terrestrial laboratories will have available scores of analytical technologies, many of which require sophisticated sample preparation and delicate interaction just not feasible with a robotic lab. <br /><br />Many of the sample methods require tonnes of equipment too, and just can't be minaturised. They also can be very power hungry, beyond the capability of the levels that can be reasonably expected for an unmanned probe. Sometimes it is just easier to bring the mountain to your religious leader than the religious leader to the mountain.<br /><br />One last factor is that analytical technology is improving all the time. Lunar samples from the Apollo and Luna missions can now be analysed by instruments that were not invented when they were collected - Ion probes, proton probes, atomic force microscopic, scanning tunneling electron microscopy for example. A robotic lab will be restricted to using a specific technology and will operate only for a few years. Returned samples will be analysed for decades with every improving technology.<br /><br />MSR is, as you point out very expensive. So to select the best sites we will need lots of non return probes as well.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br />Edited for extra content <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[dragon04]

Okay. Here's a wild idea. I've seen images of "micro machines" over on Science Daily.<br /><br />Along that vein, I got to thinking (always a dangerous thing). Would it not be possible to "dope" micro machines or just micro pieces of substances with whatever would be chemically reactive with the desired target chemical/compund, have the probe dig a ditch, bury the micro things and then retrieve and analyze them?<br /><br />I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I can't quite put the idea into the syntax I'm looking for here.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[robnissen]

That was a very good point you made about the fact that once samples are here, they can be tested for decades with ever-improving technology. But, my concern is that NASA has a limited budget and I am concerned that a sample return mission could chew up NASA's entire budget when there are so many planets and (especially) moons to be explored in the Solar System. Plus, Mars has been the graveyard of numerous missions, I would hate for us to put all our eggs in one basket.

 

[centsworth_II]

Look at what is being done with the microscopic grains returned by Stardust. Even a very modest sample return via Mars landing will return hundreds if not thousands of times as much material. <br /><br />But what about the cheaper, easier type of sample return mission that would not land but would skim* the upper atmosphere collecting Mars dust. Perhaps a Stardust-like aerogel collecter would be used. Great success with analyzing the Stardust samples could boost support for this type of mission.<br /><br /> *Sample Collection for Investigation of Mars (SCIM)<br />"<i>The SCIM mission would return the first samples back from Mars. It would "skim" through the atmosphere at around 40 miles from the surface, gathering dust and air samples, then return them back to Earth. The mission calls for two separate passes of Mars, one year apart, to confirm that the area for collection is laden with dust. The spacecraft uses the same type of "aerogel" that was used in the recent Stardust comet sampling mission.</i>"<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"...dope micro machines or just micro pieces of substances with whatever would be chemically reactive with the desired target chemical..."</font><br /><br />Sounds like you're describing a typical pH, oxygen, CO2, etc. probe -- on a micro scale. But more exciting is the "lab-on-a-chip" concept which is more geared to detecting organic molecules. These are being developed for future Mars missions but still won't come near what could be done in Earth-based labs.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

ExoMars will be some biomarker detecting chips on it.<br /><br />SCIM sounds like one exciting mission, although the sample return is very limited.<br /><br />The only funded MSR program at the moment is ESA's mission, probably in the 2013-19 time frame.<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

I had missed the SCIM mission, that seems to me to be an excellent idea. Hopefully, Stardust will give the impetus to get that mission funded. Not going to and from the last 40 miles to the martian surface should drastically reduce the cost of that mission. Thus, I would like to see a successfull SCIM mission before we go forward with a full sample return mission.

 

[JonClarke]

SCIM also avoids much to the PPP issues as well associated with MSR. Being relatively simple and thus cheap might break the pyschological hurdle of MSR as well. <br /><br />But as a Scout class mission it has several hurdles to face. As I understand the entire Scout program is in doubt after Congress refused funding. Plus we don't know whether it will be resubmitted as a proposal for either of the two Scout slots, even if the series still goes ahead.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

A combination of valuable science return from the Stardust samples and from the atomic force microscope (AFM) of the 2007 Phoenix mission may push SCIM over the top. Imagine if after using Phoenix's AFM to study the same types of particles found in Mars dust, the scientists find themselves saying "if only we could get our hands on some of this stuff!" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[dragon04]

I sure would like to see a few kilos of Martian a water ice core sample in the hands of Earthbound scientists. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />Speaking of which, it's not that I'm adverse to the return of Martian soil samples, but would it not be a better objective to go to the water and bring <b>that</b> back? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[robnissen]

To the extent we do a sample return mission going to either the polar ice caps, or somewhere radar images show ice within a few centimeters of the surface (if any) would be the most logical place to go. Having said that, the orbital mechanics for a polar lander are apparently more difficult than an equatorial lander. I don't know why that is, but that is my understanding.

 

[dragon04]

I'm just thinking that a 1 meter water ice core sample of a Martian pole in "summer" would give us a nice history of Mars considering that one could assume that it's been eons since there was liquid water there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

A core through a layered ice-rich polar deposit would be very nice. But we are not likely to get a few kg though. MSR proposals are mostly of the order of 0.1 to 1 kg.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[voyagerwsh]

<i>"The results suggest that ice is a viable habitat for life on Earth and other icy planets," the GSA says.</i>, on the suject of microbes living in tiny water veins of glacial ice. <br /><br />Reported in <i>the Geological Society of America's journal Geology</i> (GSA), H. Meider <i>et al.</i> have found microoganisms, eukaryotic cells, in subsurface terrestrial pemafrost ice. Surplisingly, water veins between ice crystals are riched in nutrients enough for microbial metabolisms. <br /><br />Link<br /><br />Life as we don't know it<br /><br /><br />-----------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Mars polar ice cap or rock glacier might offer probable site for Sample Return mission.<br /><br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

Mind you, Martian polar ice is (offhand) about 100 degrees colder that th earth's poles, so not as hospitable. But polar ice would preserve evidence for life elsewhere on Mars.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[voyagerwsh]

Well, Jon, that statement of possible life on icy planet was quoted by GSA. Wasn't it? Besides, I think Europan ice is around - 163 to - 223 degrees Celsius, yet some scientists think life is possible there. <br /><br />Cheers.

 

[JonClarke]

The Geology article in the link does not mention Mars, and the temperatures involved are much warmer than at the Martian poles. I don't think there is much liklihood of liqid water at the Martian poles, and so far the only MARSIS line across the North Polar cap has failed to deect any basal melting.<br /><br />I don't think anyone has said that there is life in the ice of Europa, on that there might be life in a putative ocean under it, where the temperatures would be a good deal warmer than at the surface.<br /><br />Jon <br /><i>edited for spelling</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[voyagerwsh]

Hello Jon,<br /><br /><i>The Geology article in the link does not mention Mars.</i><br /><br />True. It mentioned icy planets. It was my speculation of Mars polar cap might be good spot for the MSR.<br /><br /><i>I don't think there is much liklihood of liqid water at the Martian poles, and so far the only MARSIS line across the North Polar cap has failed to deect any basal melting.</i><br /><br />Great point, but I like the idea of film of water veins could exist in between icy crystals in cold glacial ice. It may not happen on mars polar caps, but pressured ice sheet might provide some heating energy for tiny films of liquid water melting. <br /><br /><i>I don't think anyone has said that there is life in the ice of Europa.</i><br /><br />Not many, I agree. However, some think its has the possibility.<br /><br />Brad Dalton of NASA AMES examed the infra red spectrum on Europan ice and it had similar signature with the microoganisms of Yellowsotone National Park.<br /><br />Link <br /><br />Cheers

 

[aaron38]

Science aside, isn't a sample return mission a needed pre-requisite for a manned mission?<br /><br />The sample return would double as a technology demonstrator. We need to prove we can bring back a few pounds of rocks before we try to bring back a live crew, correct?

 

[robnissen]

Maybe. But we didn't do a sample return mission to the Moon before we sent our astronauts there.

 

[JonClarke]

But it has been repeatedly identified as a prerequiste for Mars missions because of the greater and novel risks and the experiences of Apollo, especially lunar dust. Going to Mars will not be a race, where corners can be cut.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[voyagerwsh]

Next phase reached in definition of Mars Sample Return mission<br /><br />Link<br /><br />The time frame of a MSR mission launched by either NASA or ESA could be still two decades away, but the initial phases will have their steps really soon.

 

[serak_the_preparer]

Well, it's a year later and time for more on Mars Sample Return:<br /><br />European meeting in Athens fuels future space exploration missions to Mars, Moon by Dr. Jean-Claude Worms (European Science Foundation)<br /><br />31. May 2007<br /><br /><i>. . . The meeting, which was held on 15-16 May 2007 in Athens, defined the science rationale of this programme, dubbed “Emergence and co-evolution of life with its planetary environments.†<br /><br />The scientists identified three target bodies to be visited by a number of international missions in the timeframe 2013-2035: the planet Mars, the Moon, and Near-Earth Objects, which are asteroids orbiting the Sun within reach of the Earth. The planet Mars qualifies as a place where life may have evolved in the past and is thus a good candidate for missions searching for signs of extinct, or even extant, life. <br /><br />The exploration programme, also known as “Aurora†in early versions of this ambitious plan, will focus on planetary bodies that can ultimately be reached by humans, although the first steps of the 30-year programme can only be robotic. An ultimate goal is for European astronauts to participate in the first international mission that will land humans on the planet Mars....</i>