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Mars Tunnels?

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odysseus145

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Just in case you didn't know, Richard Hoagland, the founder of that site knows very little about what he is talking about. Though the feature is interesting, it has nothing to do with "glass tubes." This is a very good site explaining it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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paradoxical

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Hmmm<br /><br />This is my first post ever at space.com...I have abandoned the Black Vault as it is full of twats....<br /><br />But, I would like to ask: how do you actually know that Hoagland doesn't know what he's talking about?
 
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odysseus145

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Maybe I should have said that his ideas seem a little to outlandish and absurd to be true. Also, the vast majority of his claims can be disproven as shown at badastronomy.com <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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bobvanx

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"The only way they could prove him wrong is by sending people to mars."<br /><br />OMG I just became a Hoagland true believer.
 
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a_lost_packet_

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Somewhere along the line, Hoagland took a wrong turn... He continues to head down a road of fantasy, publicity and marketing his rediculous suppositions to the his "woo woo" fans.<br /><br />Odysseus145 is correct. Badastronomy.com has a great writeup "discussing" Hoagland's theories. There are also a number of other sites on the net that debunk Hoagland very handily. It's not very difficult because most of what he writes is aimed towards people who already believe his previous pap.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>
 
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mooware

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<font color="yellow">"People like to say he doesn't know what he's talking about but in reality... they can't prove him wrong. The only way they could prove him wrong is by sending people to mars.. "</font><br /><br />But it's not up to us to prove him wrong. He's making the extraordiary claim, so it's his job to prove it.<br /><br />
 
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a_lost_packet_

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<font color="yellow">yubu-That's from the author of Badastronomy.com, Phil. His crusade to "debunk" theories of others are just because he could never come up with his own. </font><br /><br />That doesn't make his debunking of Hoagland any less valid. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>
 
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bushuser

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Whatever it may be, it deserves imaging at every opportunity, in different seasons and with different light angles. It is too big to be biological, and no alien creatures would construct this one object while leaving the rest of the planet pristine. It is a fascinating natural phenomenon.
 
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JonClarke

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Yubu<br /><br />Communicating truths discovered by others and dispelling lies is an honourable profession and a worthy goal. Original ideas, in themselves have no merit unless they are supported by genuine evidence. Hoagland's aren't<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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JonClarke

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Hi castisos<br /><br />Trying to drag the subject back on topic....<br /><br />I hope people do go to these sites one day. They are cool features and of manageable scale (ten's of m deep, a hundred or so across, and a few kn long), unlike lots of things on Mars.<br /><br />But they are not collapsed tunnels, simply part of a set of polygonal fractures with valley floor dunes. Both are very common on Mars. Everything about these features points to them being natural in origin.<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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odysseus145

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Go to the first link I gave and scroll down to "The Convex/Concave Con." It explains the apearences of those pictures. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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a_lost_packet_

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<font color="yellow">yubu - Which ever it turned out to be... concaved or tube like, would still need an explanation... </font><br /><br />Prior to your post, it seems JonClarke offered an explanation.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">JonClarke - ..But they are not collapsed tunnels, simply part of a set of polygonal fractures with valley floor dunes. Both are very common on Mars. Everything about these features points to them being natural in origin. ..</font><br /><br />Is this insufficient? If so, why? I'm curious.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>
 
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yurkin

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<font color="yellow">His crusade to "debunk" theories of others are just because he could never come up with his own. </font><br /><br />Yah I’m sure Phil is really beating himself up. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hoagland’s discovery of giant glass worms on Mars dwarfs anything discovery he’s made.<br />
 
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5stone10

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<font color="yellow">How can you so easily accept clarks answer without any proof</font><br /><br /><br />'Cause he consistently provides credible commentary - he's also got a background in Geology.
 
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JonClarke

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Hi Yubu<br /><br />I have been mentioned several times so I thought I had better join in <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> You have a couple posts, so I will try to answer them all in one, so here goes.<br /><br />First you wrote: I just find it funny that people can "prove" him wrong with the same lack of evidence that Hoagland has."<br /><br />While there has been no studies specifically on that particular image, there have been many of the polygonal terrain of the northern plains of Mars and they are clearly the same order of feature. For example http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/LPSC99/pdf/1354.pdf<br /><br />http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2002/2001GL014100.shtml<br /><br />http://www.eid.dlr.de/me/Institut/Abteilungen/Strahlenbiologie/pdf/astrobiologie/P2_06.pdf<br /><br />In addition to that, simple inspection shows that these are troughs floored by dunes. The glass "worm" or "tunnel" is simply an optical illusion from looking at an un processed image.<br /><br />So the case that argues for the natural origin of these features has much more evidence than the side that says they are worms or tunnels.<br /><br />"My understanding of polygonal fractures is that they require lava, water or man to be created."<br /><br />Sort of. Polygonal fractures form in more or less homogeneous material that undergoes more or less even extensional stress in all directions. For example, drying mud, cooling lava, frozen ground, or over ground inflated by magma intrusion. They are not man made features. The ones on Mars occur in low land areas near the mouths of major outflow channels. They are are generally thought to have formed in frozen sediment through thermal contraction. They are about an order of ma <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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phaze

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Those "tunnels" are anything but. It's a feature seen in a lot of pictures and looks a lot more like dunes in valleys when you see larger scale pictures. <br /><br />At least that's what I think.
 
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bobvanx

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I think yubu and his army of drone cyborgs made those tunnels.<br /><br />Why won't he let the rest of us come out to Mars and play?
 
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thermionic

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Did someone mention drone cyborgs? Right here with you man... I had the pleasure of touring Arizona this summer, and saw some similar features (although on a smaller scale) at the Petrified Forest National Monument. There were even some forks in the ravines where you could see the dunes interact with each other as wind chose its direction. I don't think we have to go all the way to Mars to understand these images.<br /><br />The tail end of that article on Hoagland's site is irritating. He asks us to be independent thinkers, then goes on to tell us what to think, while putting words in the mouths of 'JPL/NASA'. It's right and proper to question ideas (others and one's own), but this guy is not being intellectually honest in my opinion.
 
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JonClarke

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Hi thermonic<br /><br />Do youb have any images from your trip to post that illustrate this? I would be interested for one.<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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thermionic

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Sorry, no. Lots of pictures of my kids (clone units?) posing on fossil logs though. The features I have in mind<br />were small, several inches wide maybe, gaps between large rocks. There was lots of fine sand there, and the wind<br />produced those ripples perpendicular to the long axis of the gaps. I thought of martian worms as soon as I saw this.<br />Kicking around in the desert was quite interesting, with the MER pictures in mind. I saw stratified basalt, thick layers<br />of fairly homogeneous sediment limestones, a patch of dried mud that had little blobs up on top of thin ridges that the wind<br />had scoured. I also saw the fossil imprint of a 10 kilometer long fish-thing , but that was only after a fair number of beers. The next morning, somehow it looked more like a stream bed.
 
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bobw

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I also saw the fossil imprint of a 10 kilometer long fish-thing <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />LOL! You missed the opportunity of a life-time to get some valuable pictures. I hope I'm not drunk when my chance comes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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JonClarke

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Pity...<br /><br />Nice fish story though <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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