MARSIS' findings -- MaxTheKnife off-topic spinoff thread

[maxtheknife]

Steve: <font color="yellow">Many are very curious as to what will be found, and also would be interested in seeing what on ground confirmation shows.</font><br /><br />You can say that again.....<br /><br />http://www.enterprisemission.com/press-water.html<br />http://www.enterprisemission.com/tides.htm<br />http://www.enterprisemission.com/ice-bara.htm<br /><br />At the end of the last link, M. Bara writes: "A tsunami of a different sort may well be bursting at the seams, even now ... a tidal wave of Truth. "<br /><br />Yep. Go Marsis, go.....

 

[maxtheknife]

"You gonna bark all day little doggie? Or are you gonna bite?" -Mr. White, Resevoir Dogs.

 

[chew_on_this]

Steve is most prone to "turn tail and run" if the past is any indication.

 

[robnissen]

While some of Steve's postings are dismissive and arrogant, I agree with him completely on this one. The topic of this thread is Marsis, not Hoagland's theories. I really hope this thread doesn't become hijacked by Hoagland's disciples. If the Hoagland disciples want to discuss how the Marsis data proves Hoagland is correct, (for some reason I doubt they are going to say that the Marsis data proves Hoagland wrong <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), please start a new thread.

 

[maxtheknife]

Sorry Rob, but RCH's Mars Tidal Model has everything to do w/ Marsis.<br /><br />I'm allowed to post my thoughts and I just happen to agree w/ what RCH has to say.<br /><br />Hijacked? Puh-lease. Ignore it if you don't like it.<br /><br />Hey Chew..... Thanks man.... I still smile everytime I see your little Homer signiture! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[maxtheknife]

Please define insult and spamming. I do not believe I've done either.

 

[chew_on_this]

<font color="yellow">Either post on the subject, without insulting others...</font><br /><br />Holy crap, do I even need to say it? Ok I will, pot, kettle, black.

 

[jatslo]

- Are you the curator of EnterpriseMission.com, the EnterpriseMission.com web site that has stirred up so much controversy on this and many other UBB threads, or are you just playing a supportive role, because I am not interested in debating this controversial subject with anyone other than the source?<br />- <br />If you claim to be this source, then please provide evidence to support that claim.<br />

 

[maxtheknife]

Jatslo! Where've ya been?!<br /><br />Just a supportive role <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Nobody is forcing you to debate anything w/ anyone.<br /><br />Hmmm... now how does something w/ no merit manage to stir up so much controversy? Oh, that's right... cuz it <i> actually has merit</i>.

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Please define... spamming. </font><br /><br />It's when the total number of times a TEM or Captain's Blog link has appeared in threads here at SDC is a multiple of 33 or 39. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <br /><br />(And it is.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[jatslo]

That remains to be seen, and your entitled to your opinion; however, with all due respect to Steve, let us wait for the evidence to start pouring in before start jumping to conclusions that may or may not have merit.<br /><br />There will be plenty of controversy with perceptions, no doubt.<br />

 

[maxtheknife]

Lolol, Telf... Now you're getting it <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[JonClarke]

Max<br /><br />Not one of those links has any reference to MARSIS and are irrelevant.<br /><br />This is a blantant attempt to highjack a thread to once again work though Hoaglands nonsense. No on mate.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Too bad it wasn't a joke, Max. <br /><br />Sadly, it's all too true. And Jon's right. None of those links reference Marsis. There's no reason for them to be in the thread. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Just curious, Jatslo.... Have you read this article?<br /><br />http://www.enterprisemission.com/ice-bara.htm <br /><br />Apparently some major predictions of the model have already been confirmed.<br /><br />There are specific predictions in RCH's Tidal Model, <i>(which I won't post the link to again lest I be spamming!)</i> You don't want to talk about them?<br /><br />Exactly what respect is due to Steve? I guess all the respect he shows others, eh? <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br />Steve started a thread.... I posted my thoughts. What's the problem? None of you had to chime in, but you did. I can only assume you want to talk about it. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I'm not nearly as familiar w/ the Tidal Model as I am w/ Cydonia, but I'm certainly willing to re-read it all and talk about it and what we might expect Marsis to find.<br /><br /><br /><br />

 

[maxtheknife]

No duh, Jon.... Maybe cuz the articles were written before Marsis was even concieved?<br /><br />It's a blatant attempt to have a meaningful discussion.

 

[JonClarke]

"No duh, Jon.... Maybe cuz the articles were written before Marsis was even concieved?"<br /><br />Wrong. All three pieces were written in 2000 or after. The third was written in 2005. The formal proposal for MARSIS was submitted in Feb 1998. For the record, people were discussing ground ice and aquifers on Mars in the 60's, long before Hoagland started spouting his falsehoods. if you want to have a "meaningful discussion" learn some facts about Mars and its history first. Don't rely of Hoagland.<br /><br />If you want to have a "meaningful discussion" on Hoagland start your own thread. I will not discuss Hoagland further on this thread with you. Stick to the point. please.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[blairf]

I seem to recall seeing some of the MARSIS people saying they had "interesting results" that they would be able to release in a couple of weeks... and that was a couple of weeks ago!<br /><br />Anyone heard anything?

 

[JonClarke]

The actual announcement is at http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMQAN808BE_0.html Interesting results (meaning that the system actually looks like it works) but no date on any publication. Ground penetrating radar data is very arcane, it's not like releasing a photo of the surface. It requires a lot of processing and interpretation to get anything useful out of it. I would suggest maybe something might be known by the end of December.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

FYI....<br /><br />I did not start this thread...... <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

 

[jatslo]

So, what's this I hear about a ice bra?

 

[jatslo]

<font color="yellow">Just curious, Jatslo.... Have you read this article?</font><br /><br />Yes.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Apparently some major predictions of the model have already been confirmed.</font><br /><br />Major predictions of the model validity need substantiation outside of the source that is claiming success. Can you do this?<br /><br /><font color="yellow">(There are specific predictions in RCH's Tidal Model, (which I won't post the link to again lest I be spamming!) You don't want to talk about them?) </font><br /><br />Your not the source of information, you are utilizing the information as evidence to support your perceptions; Therefore, contrary to what Steve said about SPAM, you are not transmitting SPAM.<br /><br />With respect to "Tidal Models", these are perceptual processes of plausibility, improbability, and probability of a creative mind.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Exactly what respect is due to Steve? I guess all the respect he shows others, eh?</font><br /><br />Steve is a master of "Fallacy".<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Steve started a thread.... I posted my thoughts. What's the problem? None of you had to chime in, but you did. I can only assume you want to talk about it.</font><br /><br />...Because these ideas represent a minority, whereas most people tend to follow the majority.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">I'm not nearly as familiar w/ the Tidal Model as I am w/ Cydonia, but I'm certainly willing to re-read it all and talk about it and what we might expect Marsis to find.</font><br /><br />I will try to keep up, but I am very busy...<br /><br />http://www.enterprisemission.com/tides.htm<br /><br />Let's get started...

 

[jatslo]

<font color="yellow">A NEW MODEL OF MARS AS A FORMER CAPTURED SATELLITE:</font><br /><br />Okay, this turns me off. Mars as former captured satellite...<br /><br /><font color="yellow">BI-MODAL DISTRIBUTION OF KEY FEATURES<br />DUE TO ANCIENT TIDAL STRESS?</font><br /><br />I don't have a problem reviewing evidence that supports ancient tidal stress.<br /><br /><font color="yellow"> <br />Richard C. Hoagland<br /> (Principal Investigator, Enterprise Mission) <br />Michael Bara<br /> (Executive Director, Formal Action Committee on Extraterrestrial Studies).<br /><br /></font>kay, I will try to be unbiased.<font color="yellow"><br /><br />ABSTRACT<br /><br /></font>PA Format? This web site is poorly designed and Richard C. Hoagland should seriously consider contracting or hiring professionals in the field; however, I will overlook his unprofessionally poor marketing abilities for the time being.<font color="yellow"><br /><br />Conventional models of Mars, based on measurements by initial Mariner unmanned spacecraft, found an arid, apparently ancient environment without current liquid water.<br /><br /></font>kay, so far.<font color="yellow"><br /><br />This prompted subsequent, highly negative assessments regarding Mars’ history, and the difficulty for the origin and/or evolution of higher forms of life.<br /><br /></font>ause + effect = Problem or Richard C. Hoagland’s problem with perception; however, let us give Richard C. Hoagland a chance.<font color="yellow"><br /><br />Later, the unmanned Viking missions (as well as the 1997 Pathfinder Lander) seemed to confirm this barren model.<br /><br /></font> remember that; however, these perceptual processes are leading to what?<font color="yellow"><br /><br />Complex, sometimes contradictory geologic theories to explain this desolate Mars environment have been proposed, based on a wide variety of observed surface phenomena and features.<br /><br /></font>eah,

 

[JonClarke]

"Conventional models of Mars, based on measurements by initial Mariner unmanned spacecraft, found an arid, apparently ancient environment without current liquid water."<br /><br />Not OK. These missions were Mainer IV in 1965 and Mariners 6 and 7 in 1969. While some did jump on the conclusion that mars was a Moon-like world with a whisp of an atmosphere, others did caution that the three missions had between them imaged only 20% of the planet.<br /><br />In 1971 Mariner 9 and the Russian Mars 2 and 3) showed that the planet had polar ice caps extensive channels that indicated flowing water, and polygonal terrain consistent with ground ice. <br /><br />As a result of the three 1971 missions past liquid water, present ground and surface ice have been part of "conventional models" of Mars for the last 34 years and Hoagland KNOWS this. Statements like this are deliberate mispresentations designed to mislead. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Oh, I see what you mean. He is definitely stating something as fact, when the fact of the matter was “We were not sure”. You know, he is just going with the majority vote, I bet. Most people do. I do not.<br /><br />Your interpretation is better by far, but I only just looked at the abstract, and there is not much details in abstracts.