Millions of tons of water ice on moon. What just changed?

[Valcan]

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/w ... 00301.html

Ok, thats alot of water....a stupid amount like as one guy wrote 240,000 olympic swiming pools.

Thats worth alot of money and if anyone can get at it and refine it into usable material they could make alot of money so. What does that change if anything and how do you set up to get to it. What technology etc do we need?

 

[bdewoody]

We have all the technology we need to build a base on the moon. We just need the will and fortitude to do it.

 

[rockett]

Get there. Which we can't. Moon program's dead, remember?

Discoveries (and often reality ) rarely seems to influence politics. Didn't do any good for Apollo, or the Superconducting Super Collider any good either. Now Russia is flying it's uprated Apollo era capsule (and charging us for rides) and the Europeans have the Large Hadron Collider (where many of the SSC scientists went).

Chinese, Indians, Russians, Japanese and all the other countries with announced moon programs will be swimming in those pools it by the time we get there.

 

[Valcan]

Dear god no offense but sometimes yall can be the biggest premadonas. :roll:

As the ISS and the moon are the next Object (as he was trying to tell whats his face who could differentate between goal and objective) for Nasa. The whole reason that Nasa quite ares was that in a few yrs a private US company can do it for us.

BTW the soonest ares I was supposed to be man rated and ready was 2016 and thats with unlimited funds which we know wont happen.

From what i understand no one is expecting the private sector to field a super heavy rocket (though i think they could if asked which i still like Ares V). But they can field and operate the smaller rockets. So we would be getting back just as fast or faster to space than if Nasa hadnt canceled constellation. Also i dont think much of anything was wrong with Orion and in a few yrs vasimr should be ready for go so we can use it as a tug out of orbit and to the moon and back. While the chinese and indians try to use the old tech.

I dont think you NEED a moon base. Simply send a base modual and rovers to the moon have the rovers collect and bring the ice to the base which then refines it into pure water or into rocket fuel (that could happen at a later date to simplify processing, ruduce weight, cost etc) This would then be shipped to a modual over head that storred it for transport. When full a VASIMR tug comes and deposits a new transport modual and the process continues. The tug take the water to the ISS or to other stations where its needed.

I think this could be done with existing technology. And with private launch services.

 

[DarkenedOne]

Get there. Which we can't. Moon program's dead, remember?

Discoveries (and often reality ) rarely seems to influence politics. Didn't do any good for Apollo, or the Superconducting Super Collider any good either. Now Russia is flying it's uprated Apollo era capsule (and charging us for rides) and the Europeans have the Large Hadron Collider (where many of the SSC scientists went).

Chinese, Indians, Russians, Japanese and all the other countries with announced moon programs will be swimming in those pools it by the time we get there.

Well I believe that this discovery does bring us much closer to going back to the moon.

Water makes up about half of the human consumption needs or around 3 kg per day. On top of that water can be broken down into oxygen to breathe, which account for another kilogram per day. That leaves food at only 2 kg. That is a 2/3rds reduction in human consumables.

Water can also be used to make rocket fuel, which makes up a huge portion of the mass for return journeys.

When Constellation was conceived no one knew about the water so they planned to simply ship everything , which is why the rockets they wanted to build had to be so massive. Now that NASA knows about the water we can redesign our vehicles to use it thus decreasing the amount of mass needed for shipping and making everything cheaper. Of course if you choose to use this new water source it makes it possible for the mission to be done for far cheaper using smaller rockets.

At the same time the discovery of water on the moon also greatly increases our motive for going. As one scientist stated " the moon just became a far more interesting place." There are scientific reasons for the increased attention. There are also economic ones as well. Since the moon's gravity is so much weaker than Earth's it may be cheaper in the future for space missions to get their water, oxygen, and fuel from there.

 

[kelvinzero]

The discovery of water would not affect the mass of initial constellation-like missions. It would have to wait until significant infrastructure is in place before this water can be exploited. Also, the constellation architecture had to be suitable for multiple destinations, not just the poles.

The problem with constellation is that it was going to cost so much it would have left no money, or only token chicken feed money, to actually research or apply any ISRU technology. Towards the end they were even talking about sorties instead of a permanent base.

First thing we need is that robotic precursor mission to actually see what form the water is in so we can begin thinking of what equipment is best to extract it.

As for using 3kg a day, hopefully recycling can greatly extend this. I hope that with very good recycling, any water collected from the regolith can be used to grow the base instead of just being expended.

 

[rockett]

I agree that the moon water is an exciting propect scientifically.

But everyone seems to assume that we can just start shovelling regolith into an extracter and get the water out.

For one thing, it's REALLY cold there (which is why the water is still there). Figures that I have seen range from -280 degrees F to -298 degrees F. When you think about it, that's ONLY 40 degrees F to 22 degrees WARMER than liquid nitrogen. I think most people have seen the effects of liquid nitrogen demos where everyday objects are doused with it. If not, do a search, there are several videos out there.

At present, I don't believe we have any type of rover that can survive that for long, let alone function. Note that even the Mars rovers and landers shut down for the winter.

If we are serious about moon colonization, we need to develop the technology to extract the water. Such as rovers that you can douse in liquid nitrggen and keep on ticking.

 

[mr_mark]

My arguement would be, you need a base on the Moon if you want to eventually colonize. NASA does not have a colonization plan as they are into exploration and exploration only. Only Elon Musk and Spacex has the colonization plan of space as their main objective. Elon has always been pro colony on Mars. Now maybe other private companies can get into the game and set up a lunar colony or build Lunar habitats as a means of starting such things but, don't look to NASA it's not in their manifesto.

 

[aaron38]

For one thing, it's REALLY cold there (which is why the water is still there). Figures that I have seen range from -280 degrees F to -298 degrees F. At present, I don't believe we have any type of rover that can survive that for long, let alone function. Note that even the Mars rovers and landers shut down for the winter.

You're forgetting that vacuum is an insulator. -285F is about the temperature out at Saturn, and Cassini manages to stay warm just fine. It's actually harder on Mars, because the atmosphere, thin as it is, strips away heat.
ISS doesn't get bathed in liquid nitrogen every time it goes into Earth's shaddow, even though the temperature drops that low, and neither will a lunar rover.

Yes the ice is very cold. But there's a giant fusion reactor overhead that provides the energy to melt the ice.

The discovery of water would not affect the mass of initial constellation-like missions. It would have to wait until significant infrastructure is in place before this water can be exploited. Also, the constellation architecture had to be suitable for multiple destinations, not just the poles.

True. But this ice gives us, finally, a real mission. I have no patience left for Flags and Bootprint missions, and neither does anyone else. There's a huge difference between shipping a bunch of mass for some landings that go nowhere, and shipping a bunch of mass as an investment that makes a Lunar base self-sufficient, and therefore permanent.

The mission has changed, and changed for good. The first manned landings aren't going to be scientific but industrial. To gain access to the in situ resources that permanently reduces the cost of every follow on mission. Those cost reductions then enable all the interesting things we want to do. That's the difference between an investment and a boondoggle.

 

[rockett]

I agree that the moon water is an exciting propect scientifically.

For one thing, it's REALLY cold there (which is why the water is still there). Figures that I have seen range from -280 degrees F to -298 degrees F. At present, I don't believe we have any type of rover that can survive that for long, let alone function. Note that even the Mars rovers and landers shut down for the winter.

You're forgetting that vaccum is an insulator. -285F is about the temperature out at Saturn, and Cassini manages to stay warm just fine. It's actually harder on Mars, because the atmosphere, thin as it is, strips away heat.
ISS doesn't get bathed in liquid nitrogen every time it goes into Earth's shaddow, even though the temperature drops that low, and neither will a lunar rover.

Yes the ice is very cold. But there's a giant fusion reactor overhead that will provide the energy to melt the ice.

Vacuum is indeed an insulator. However this machine, whatever form it takes, must be in direct contact with the regolith to do it's job. Direct conduction will suck the heat out in the process.

As for the fusion reactor overhead, what you don't want is to redirect it with mirrors or whatever and evaporate all your water (which you are trying to collect in the first place). Nuclear reactor would be a better option to power it, you could insulate that somewhat maybe....

 

[nimbus]

Wasn't there someone involved in researching just that, who recently said that you could collect water from water-bearing regolith by holding a plate over the regolith while microwaving it, and then just scrape off the ice?

Or you could collect the insolation by solar panels and use that free energy to feed the harvesting vehicle's warming gizmos.

 

[rockett]

Wasn't there someone involved in researching just that, who recently said that you could collect water from water-bearing regolith by holding a plate over the regolith while microwaving it, and then just scrape off the ice?

Or you could collect the insolation by solar panels and use that free energy to feed the harvesting vehicle's warming gizmos.

Yes, you are right. Found it!

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/07oct_microwave.htm

Now all we need is a rover that won't freeze up as it leaves a lander (that landed away from the ice to prevent wasting it) and rolls into the dark area.

Maybe NASA could contract International Harvester? :lol:

 

[nimbus]

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/water-moon-north-pole-100301.html

Ok, thats alot of water....a stupid amount like as one guy wrote 240,000 olympic swiming pools.

Thats worth alot of money and if anyone can get at it and refine it into usable material they could make alot of money so. What does that change if anything and how do you set up to get to it. What technology etc do we need?

240 000 olympic swimming pools is 240,000*2,500 m3 = 600 000 000 m3 = 600 000 000 kg = 600 thousand tons which is 1000 times less than the reported 600 million tons found up there.

 

[Valcan]

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/water-moon-north-pole-100301.html

Ok, thats alot of water....a stupid amount like as one guy wrote 240,000 olympic swiming pools.

Thats worth alot of money and if anyone can get at it and refine it into usable material they could make alot of money so. What does that change if anything and how do you set up to get to it. What technology etc do we need?

240 000 olympic swimming pools is 240,000*2,500 m3 = 600 000 000 m3 = 600 000 000 kg = 600 thousand tons which is 1000 times less than the reported 600 million tons found up there.

Hmm i think it all depends on the shape of the bottom of the pool. If the pools bottom is a uniform shape (no deep or shallow end) i think that doesnt really matter though.

Thats alot of freakin resources, dont you agree?

Look people your missiong the point im not really a lets go to the moon person i see no point in colonizing a airless ball (could women even have a child there later?). However want to mine some resources im right there with ya.

As others have said im tired of the stupid oh look we went there thats awesome now sence we spent so much money doing that we have none left for building space stations or mining lets go home.

No more one time deals time to go there for good.

 

[rockett]

Yes I agree with you. We have a foothold in the space station, now we need to expand from there.

It's the next step in our evolution...

 

[Valcan]

Yes I agree with you. We have a foothold in the space station, now we need to expand from there.

It's the next step in our evolution...

Amen, in many ways if we dont do it im pretty sure humanity HAS no future. Evolve or die. Man stagnates when he loses his horrizon.

 

[EarthlingX]

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/water-moon-north-pole-100301.html

Ok, thats alot of water....a stupid amount like as one guy wrote 240,000 olympic swiming pools.

Thats worth alot of money and if anyone can get at it and refine it into usable material they could make alot of money so. What does that change if anything and how do you set up to get to it. What technology etc do we need?

240 000 olympic swimming pools is 240,000*2,500 m3 = 600 000 000 m3 = 600 000 000 kg = 600 thousand tons which is 1000 times less than the reported 600 million tons found up there.

Khm.. just a slight, i think, correction:

Wiki:
Cubic metre
1 m3 = 1 000 dm3 = 1 000 l = 1 000 kg H20, approximately.

600 000 000 m3 = 600 000 000 kg

600 000 000 m3 = 600 000 000 t = 600 Mt

 

[nimbus]

That's right, thanks.

 

[EarthlingX]

That's right, thanks.

Welcome. Happens to me too .. :roll:

 

[kelvinzero]

The discovery of water would not affect the mass of initial constellation-like missions. It would have to wait until significant infrastructure is in place before this water can be exploited. Also, the constellation architecture had to be suitable for multiple destinations, not just the poles.

True. But this ice gives us, finally, a real mission. I have no patience left for Flags and Bootprint missions, and neither does anyone else. There's a huge difference between shipping a bunch of mass for some landings that go nowhere, and shipping a bunch of mass as an investment that makes a Lunar base self-sufficient, and therefore permanent.

The mission has changed, and changed for good. The first manned landings aren't going to be scientific but industrial. To gain access to the in situ resources that permanently reduces the cost of every follow on mission. Those cost reductions then enable all the interesting things we want to do. That's the difference between an investment and a boondoggle.

I agree with the sentiment. I would support a constellation type mission if I thought they could make a solid commitment to spend at least as much on the base and ISRU research, starting right now, as the launch architecture.

I dont think that commitment is there. They seemed quite happy to move from a permanent base to two week sorties to HSF missions to Lagrange points when the money got tight. Anything to justify the big rockets with only lip service to eventually doing something useful with them. Constellation and then Flexible Path became a cudgel to wield against all significant ISRU and game-changing research.

For this reason my current hobby horse is a robotic lunar colony, and creating a sustainable commercial market for lunar cargo to carry our experiments there continually. I want to see teleoperated robotic precursor missions at the poles to really see what we have to work with, Heavy ISRU research here at home to produce machines that can exploit it with the most promising demonstrators actually being delivered to the moon, and work on simulated lunar bases using closed cycle life support.

 

[StarRider1701]

Finally, people are beginning to see what I've been saying for years. I love the fact that we've discovered water on the moon, it gives us that much more reason for getting industry into space. For the next few decades we need to build infrastructure in orbit and on the moon, infrastructure that will make future missions to Mars or anywhere else far cheaper or bigger for the same buck! We've explored all we need to for now, its time to use what we've found and learned during our explorations and do some hard, practical work.