More Jovian Star questions

[sbarry66]

Found this thread speculating the science of Jupiter becoming a star. I'm writing a sci fi movie for DreamWorks that dabbles with this concept. My question is, would any of the Jovian moons be able to be colonized if this were to happen? The idea would be that a comet or other collision with Jupiter caused some kind of chain reaction that ignited it. Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.<br />S.

 

[sbarry66]

Would it be possible to create a man made event that could trigger this required fusion? Remember this could be hundreds of years from now.

 

[sbarry66]

I was thinking more a man made explosion or reaction that could duplicate the effects of a brown dwarf collision, as that sounds much more convoluted.

 

[MeteorWayne]

It's all about mass.<br />The reason a brown dwarf or such an object is needed is to create a large enough mass to start fusion. Without that, you don't have a star.<br />Even if you somehow started a fusion reaction somewhere in the star, without the mass, it will quickly extinguish.<br /><br />Period!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[lukman]

Man made fusion can be ignited and sustained for several seconds in a fusion chamber by using 100+million degree celcius iginition. For a scale like Jupiter, i think we need gravity the size of sun. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[search]

Hello sbarry66<br /><br />I do not know to which audience your sci fi script is intended but if it is to people who care about scientific details then be prepared to put some effort in the conditions required for such colonization.<br /><br />First thing to think about is that the Jovian system (as it is) radiation environment would deliver about 3,600 rems per day to unshielded colonists at Io and about 540 rems per day to unshielded colonists at Europa, while somewhere around 75 rems within only a few days is generally enough to cause radiation poisoning, and somewhere around 500 rems within only a few days is fatal.<br /><br />But that fact aside lets say that some major collision would ignite Jupiter and turn it into a star.<br /><br />The reason Jupiter is not burning like the Sun is mass. If Jupiter (which mass is 317.83 times Earth or 1.9 * 1027 kg) were to be about sixty times more massive than it is, it could be a star. This extra mass would not make Jupiter grow but instead cause the it to collapse under gravity compression. Thermonuclear reactions would then ignite Jupiter would becaming a star with a diameter of about 100,000 miles (161,000 km.)<br /><br />So I guess you need to add about 60x1.9 * 1027 kg to Jupiter's mass. There are certainly not many comets like that around and such a collision would wipe out the Jovian moons.<br /><br />But it is sci fi so lets not be so picky with the mass and get the Jupiter star ignite just by a collision between Io (one of the most volcani moons of Jupiter) and Jupiter itself. Since Io is affected dramatically by Jupiter gravity (and that reflects in it volcanism) we can imagine a comet hitting Io and sending it into a collision course to Jupiter and its collision adding mass to Jupiter and as it increases takes in Metis, Adrastea, Amalthea, Thebe, Europa and Ganymede and finaly achieving the critical mass (very short of 60x but it is sci fi) and starting to collapse onitself and igniting Jupiter. Callisto the size of Mercury

 

[MeteorWayne]

No, you need aboyt 13 times Jupier's mass to sustain a fusion reaction. Nowhere near as large as the sun.<br /><br />PS, I'm checking that 13X figure to make sure it's right. Could be 17.<br /><br />In any case, Jupiter is very far away from having the mass to sustain fusion. That's why you need to add something much more massive than Jupiter itself to start the reactor.<br /><br />Ain't physics wonderful? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[SpeedFreek]

The problem is we have to add mass to jupiter to get it to 'ignite'.<br /><br />Jupiter has a mass of around 1.8986×10^27 kg (which is nearly 320 times that of Earth!)<br /><br />Now it is estimated that minimum mass required for normal hydrogen fusion to be triggered in the core of a Brown dwarf is around 75 times the mass of Jupiter! (The 13X figure is the point where a giant planet becomes a brown dwarf, the 75X figure is where a brown dwarf becomes a low mass star) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>

 

[heyscottie]

It's easy enough to start nuclear fusion in Jupiter. Just drop some hydrogen bombs, and you've got fusion! The problem is sustaining nuclear fusion. Fusion will not continue on its own without something forcing the atoms together to fuse. Fusion itself will in fact tend to blow matter apart, hampering further fusion. The sun only works because its immense gravity continues to pull the matter back together, causing enough pressure to fuse hydrogen.<br /><br />There is no known force that can continue to squash matter together in this away except for gravity. We can start fusion with giant lasers, perhaps, but it won't sustain itself once the giant lasers are turned off.<br /><br />Maybe you can hypothesize that we will have figured out how to harness the graviton and create our own gravitational field. We then put our gravity generator (which is apparently indestructible) into the core of Jupiter and flipped the switch on. Presto chango, Jupiter contracts enough to fuse hydrogen.<br /><br />But the addition of so much "virtual mass" would undoubtedly change the orbits of the planets and would probably cause the Jovian moons to spiral into Jupiter and crash... maybe your gravity generator somehow magically only works over short distances.<br /><br />By the way, turning Jupiter into a star sounds quite a bit like the plot of 2010.<br /><br />Scott

 

[tygerxg2]

Here how it goes:<br /><br />Hugh Jackman plays a Marine commander who is in charge of security among the Jupiter Orbital Research Station. <br /><br />You can see in the background a Red star... Which is our sun in the process of becoming a Red Giant. <br /><br />The station has missiles and Hugh Jackman mistakenly presses the button and it hits Jupiter, igniting it. <br /><br />The Aliens in Proxima Centauri then see a Binary star system and invade us.<br /><br />Hugh Jackman protects us and defeats the Aliens.

 

[sbarry66]

Great stuff SEARCH. Just the kind of creative thinking I'm looking for, but still in the realm of scientific possibility. Maybe we can save Europa from the chain reaction somehow...<br />Thanks.

 

[sbarry66]

lmao.

 

[lukman]

Indeed, size doesnt matter, Jupiter also doesnt have the density, not good enough gravity for its size. Btw, i was away from internet for 2 weeks, you are now a cluster, well done MeteorWayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[lukman]

Will it be a documentary movie? Nowaday, outer space scifi is having difficulties with new idea. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Thanx <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /> I didn't notice when I clustered.<br /><br />An idea to screw with, is you might get away with less mass on a temporary basis if the maybe 10 times Jupiter mass you added was deuterium. It fuses at lower temperatures and pressures, so for a while, you might be able to create a brown dwarf....but again, it's by bringing in a brown dwarf, so what's the point.<br /><br />Now if you (sbarry) are writing the kind of science fiction that can ignore science, then you can bend the rules however you want, as 2010 did. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[lukman]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> We can start fusion with giant lasers, perhaps, but it won't sustain itself once the giant lasers are turned off. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Deuterium-Tritium fusion is self sustained for around 60seconds, but since tritium is rare, it is not efficient way, but yes, Deuterium-Deuterium fusion is yet to be sustained. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[sbarry66]

I'm trying to use as much real science as I can, but it's a work of fiction and set hundreds of years from now, so some technological hurdles are easy fixes whereas the physics of the universe are constant and should remain so.

 

[lukman]

"Armageddon" is a sci fi? i always thought it was Die Hard 4 in space.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[sbarry66]

So this collision with Io and subsequent events wouldn't hold water in your view? I take it then the Brown Dwarf is the ONLY option, by your standards?

 

[brellis]

Is there even enough mass in the rest of the Solar System to produce a star if all the other planets were nudged into collision course with Jupiter? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[brellis]

For that matter, what if they figured out a way to propel Earth itself into orbit around Jupiter? Then they wouldn't have to terraform Europa. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Not even close. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

<img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br />I hadn't read your reply before mine <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

To elaborate a bit, the sun is >99.87% of the solar system's mass.<br />So there is 0.13% of a solar mass left in the rest of the entire solar system. And that is generous. The mimimum mass for deuterium fusion (i.e a Brown Dwarf, not a star) is around 0.08% of a solar mass, so the best you could do is create a brown dwarf, if the solar system was bereft of anything other than the sun and Jupiter. That means Jupiter's moons would be consumed in the mass collection process.<br /><br />I suppose if you tracked down every speck of dust, rock, planet, moon, comet, asteroid, meteoroid, and interstellar gas, you might be able to reach enough mass for deuterium fusion. Of course, the earth would have to be sacrificed in the process...... as well as every other speck of matter in the solar system, including every human. And all of Jupiter's moons.<br /><br />So unless you can float in the atmosphere of a brown dwarf (and you don't exist since we needed your mass to make the brown dwarf) it's not promising <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[dragon04]

I think it's worth noting that even with prodigious amounts of induced mass, that the most practical result would yield a red dwarf.<br /><br />A red dwarf's "flavor" of fusion is different than the Sun's. A red dwarf is simply put, like a pot of boiling water where heat is transferred convectively.<br /><br />I suppose with the applicable technology, one could import sufficient mass to make Jupiter into a red dwarf, although I have no clue as to how one could introduce that much mass simultaneously to do it.<br /><br />Even if we could, I think Eurpoa would be an inhospitable place. Red dwarfs are (to my knowledge) very prone to sudden and unpredictable flare activity.<br /><br />Considering that Europa would be tidally locked to Lucifer (a la 2010), indigenous or imported life would be very vulnerable to life ending radiation bursts on an uncomfortably regular basis without a very thick atmosphere and strong magnetic field. <br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>