New Moon "conspiracy." Lunar gravity is not 1/6th that of the Earth, but 64% and NASA is c

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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hey I didn't say exactly how far a person would fly now did I? lol <br /> Posted by kalstang</DIV></p><p>Well... The way you worded appears as though you believe if he jumps hard enough, he will send himself into orbit.&nbsp; And, well... that's just silly.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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Smersh

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Well... The way you worded appears as though you believe if he jumps hard enough, he will send himself into orbit.&nbsp; And, well... that's just silly.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>Don't worry - the entire thread over there is quite silly anyway. </p><p>I hope Kalstang's Clinton / Monica comment is within their rules ... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" /> </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1><p><font color="#800000"><em>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."<br />Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."</em></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Website / forums </strong></font></p> </div>
 
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qso1

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<p><font color="#800080">The reason for my confusion qso1, is because of a post that Zorgon made early on in the thread, in which he was querying why the Apollo astronauts only managed "small hops" and seemed to be linking it to the 64% gravity that he believes in, rather than suggesting that the moonwalks were faked here on Earth. I'm still not 100% certain though [or even 64%, for that matter ... ] Posted by Smersh</font></p><p>The small hops were the result of the astronauts, even in 1/6th G being weighed down by their EMUs and PLSS packs.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
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Kalstang

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<p>By johnlear...</p><p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'><font size="2">It's especially difficult in astronomy since we can't observe many things, for instance we can't determine the weight of a planet by looking at it therefore it is impossible to find the gravity using the mass of the body.</DIV></font></p><p>I love it when someone states something like this when they are trying to prove that the moons gravity is 64%. Talking about a catch 22! :D</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>By johnlear...I love it when someone states something like this when they are trying to prove that the moons gravity is 64%. Talking about a catch 22! :D <br /> Posted by kalstang</DIV></p><p>Anyone with even a fundemental understanding of planetary orbits, gravity, and mass would never use the term "weight". &nbsp; And his comment about not being able to determine the mass of a planet and figure out the gravity is just completely wrong.&nbsp; Newton used Keplers 3rd law to determine the mass of the moon to a high enough degree that we could put spacecraft into orbit around it. &nbsp;</p><p>Wait... this must mean Newton is in on the conspiracy, too.</p><p>When folks make statements like that, I leads me to believe they don't have a clue what they are talking about and just parroting information they got from someone else.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...dm^2/de^2 = Mm/Me Taking the square root of each side gives me the ratio of the distances ;dm/de = sqrt(Mm/Me)... <br />Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV></p><p>This is the crux of your calculation.&nbsp; But&nbsp;it does not determine a point.&nbsp; This equation applies in 3-space.&nbsp; If you apply it to a straight line joining the center of the Earth to the center of the Moon, you will find that a unique point satisfies the equation.&nbsp; But it if you try to solve this in 3-space you will find that it defines a surface.&nbsp; Even a plane containing the line joining the centers of the Earth and moon it describes what seems to be a fairly complex curve.&nbsp; Rotate that curve around the line and you get more points.&nbsp; So there is not a unique distance from the Earth or distance from the Moon answer to the question of where the gravitational forces balance.&nbsp; I don't think the folks in the Open Mind appreciate this -- zero dimensinal thinking won't solve multi-dimensional problems.&nbsp; <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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Mee_n_Mac

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This is the crux of your calculation.&nbsp; But&nbsp;it does not determine a point.&nbsp; This equation applies in 3-space.&nbsp; If you apply it to a straight line joining the center of the Earth to the center of the Moon, you will find that a unique point satisfies the equation.&nbsp; But it if you try to solve this in 3-space you will find that it defines a surface.&nbsp; Even a plane containing the line joining the centers of the Earth and moon it describes what seems to be a fairly complex curve.&nbsp; Rotate that curve around the line and you get more points.&nbsp; So there is not a unique distance from the Earth or distance from the Moon answer to the question of where the gravitational forces balance.&nbsp; I don't think the folks in the Open Mind appreciate this -- zero dimensinal thinking won't solve multi-dimensional problems.&nbsp; <br />Posted by <strong>DrRocket</strong></DIV><br /><br />Correct.&nbsp; You get a sphere containing,but not centered on, the Moon.&nbsp; The OM people are taking the "notification" sent to the Apollo 8 astronauts that they were on, or just crossed, said equigravisphere.&nbsp; I think the OM people are incorrectly making this assumption as the distances given don't place the spacecraft on that surface. </p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>
 
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Smersh

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>By johnlear...I love it when someone states something like this when they are trying to prove that the moons gravity is 64%. Talking about a catch 22! :D <br /> Posted by kalstang</DIV></p><p>Thanks for your posts over there Kalstang.&nbsp;</p><p>I have just posted over there again myself, asking if Zorgon and John Lear agree with each other about whether or not we went to the Moon. As I mentioned to qso1 in this thread, it seems to me that they don't. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1><p><font color="#800000"><em>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."<br />Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."</em></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Website / forums </strong></font></p> </div>
 
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Mee_n_Mac

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<p>OK, I just had time to read the posts added (to the OM thread) since my trip to FL and I can now see that debating math or physics is probably useless. The OP want's to believe (if I've understood him correctly) that Kepler's laws for plantery motion&nbsp;are correct but doesn't want to understand that these can be derived from Newton's laws re:gravitation.&nbsp; Gravity obeys the inverse square law (as observed by Isma&euml;l Bullialdus ) but isn't dependant on an object's mass. This latter point is especially wonderous IMO because&nbsp;it can be demonstrated by anybody (and has been) in everyday life.&nbsp; While it's probably fruitless to do so, I'll try to explain.&nbsp;Drop a big rock and a small rock, ideally in no air, and time their falls. Normally we see them fall at the same rate.&nbsp; Even if you don't believe Newton re: gravity, you have to believe in F=MA (which can also be demonstrated in everyday life by anyone).&nbsp; If the big rock has more M but it's A is the same as the small rock, it follows that the force (F)&nbsp;we call gravity is larger on the big rock. In fact it can be shown to be exactly proportional to the mass of the rock.&nbsp; So now we have gravity being dependant on the mass of the object and inversely propotional to the distance.&nbsp; All that's&nbsp;missing to make this law (which the OP apparently believes in) into Newton's law, is that gravity be dependant on the mass of the planet attracting the "rocks".&nbsp; The mind boggles at this seemingly impossible task ..... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /></p><p>We're told that the Moon has air (due to it's increased gravity), lakes and rivers and forests and meadows and mountains with snow caps and a secret base for the FreeMasons (since 1962)&nbsp;that nobody (outside of NASA and it's minions)&nbsp;has seen.&nbsp; Why the Russians, who have orbitted the Moon and put landers there, didn't jump up and&nbsp;let the cat out of the bag&nbsp;during the height of the Cold War and Space Race is beyond me.&nbsp; One wonders how the Chinese will be bought off to keep the secret ?&nbsp; Or what physics they use to place spacecraft in orbit, here or around the Moon ?&nbsp; The mind boggles that NASA has been masterminding this whole deception but does an 'oopsie' when they broadcast over a public channel the secret info that Apollo 8 has crossed into the (larger) lunar gravity well (too soon).&nbsp; Hope they fired that guy !&nbsp; I mean hundreds of years of hard work convincing the masses, not to mention all the scientists, that Newton was right and his physics worked and all those faked experimental results all undone by the words of 1 man.&nbsp; Then again he may have been given the wrong script to read ... maybe it's the script writers fault.&nbsp; But I guess some independant (of NASA) organization was bound to look at the Moon (some day soon perhaps) with a, hmmm what&nbsp;do you call those new fangled thingees ... oh yeah ...&nbsp;a telescope and see the haze due to the atmosphere or the snow or the green meadows or .....&nbsp;and then the secret would come out.&nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>OK, I just had time to read the posts added (to the OM thread) since my trip to FL and I can now see that debating math or physics is probably useless. The OP want's to believe (if I've understood him correctly) that Kepler's laws for plantery motion&nbsp;are correct but doesn't want to understand that these can be derived from Newton's laws re:gravitation.&nbsp; Gravity obeys the inverse square law (as observed by Isma&euml;l Bullialdus ) but isn't dependant on an object's mass. This latter point is especially wonderous IMO because&nbsp;it can be demonstrated by anybody (and has been) in everyday life.&nbsp; While it's probably fruitless to do so, I'll try to explain.&nbsp;Drop a big rock and a small rock, ideally in no air, and time their falls. Normally we see them fall at the same rate.&nbsp; <strong>Even if you don't believe Newton re: gravity, you have to believe in F=MA&nbsp;...&nbsp;&nbsp; <br /></strong>Posted by Mee_n_Mac</DIV></p><p><br />Apparently you missed one point.&nbsp; This nonsense started out with the book by Pari Spolter.&nbsp; One of her tenets is that F=ma is wrong and that the correct equation is F = Aa where A is area !</p><p>So indeed debating math or physics or ... is utterly useless.&nbsp; You cannot win using logic and rational thougt with people who are illogical and irrational.&nbsp; Wacko is as wacko does -- almost Forest Gump.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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Mee_n_Mac

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Apparently you missed one point.&nbsp; This nonsense started out with the book by Pari Spolter.&nbsp; One of her tenets is that F=ma is wrong and that the correct equation is F = Aa where A is area ! {snip} Posted by <strong>DrRocket</strong></DIV></p><p>Geesh, I had no idea that our conventional physics were so far off.&nbsp; Damn Galileo and his balls !</p><p><img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-surprised.gif" border="0" alt="Surprised" title="Surprised" /></p><p>&nbsp;<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /></p><p>As for the OP over at OM .... peruse his opinion on the Moon at this essay on his website.&nbsp; Obviously since we aren't including the artificial gravity generators in our calculations, we're bound to be a wee bit off. [insert proper emoticon here]</p><p>It's not clear to me that Ms Spolter and Mr Lear would agree (they don't)&nbsp;on where the "neutral point" is.&nbsp; It is clear to me that I don't care to argue the point with either of them.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>
 
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Kalstang

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You know when someone starts saying that there is air, lakes, medows, trees, and snow capped mountains on the moon I really have to wonder what the heck they've been smoking...and where could I get some? ....on second thought, I don't think that I actually want what they are smoking if it screws with the brain this much. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> You cannot win using logic and rational thougt with people who are illogical and irrational.<br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV><br /></p><p>I'm just waiting for them to start incessently chanting the terms scientific dogma, metaphysics, mythological dogma, imperical evidence, fudge factors, scientific belief system, magic elves and unicorns.<br /> </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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JonClarke

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I am looked at the Moon through high powered telescopes and not seen snow, water, vegetation or even an atmsophere.&nbsp; And I have not received a cent to say this.&nbsp; Where's my cut? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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JonClarke

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Damn Galileo and his balls !&nbsp; <br />Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV></p><p>You heave his balls out of it!<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /></p><p><br /><br />&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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Smersh

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I am looked at the Moon through high powered telescopes and not seen snow, water, vegetation or even an atmsophere.&nbsp; And I have not received a cent to say this.&nbsp; Where's my cut? <br /> Posted by jonclarke</DIV></p><p>John Lear quote, from <strong>here</strong>&nbsp;</p><p><font size="2" color="#008000"><strong>The farside of the moon, which also has a breathable atmosphere also has lakes, rivers, forests, snow-capped mountains and life as we know it here on earth.</strong></font></p><p>You haven't seen this through your telescope because it is on the farside ... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-undecided.gif" border="0" alt="Undecided" title="Undecided" />&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1><p><font color="#800000"><em>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."<br />Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."</em></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Website / forums </strong></font></p> </div>
 
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lildreamer

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>John Lear quote, from here&nbsp;The farside of the moon, which also has a breathable atmosphere also has lakes, rivers, forests, snow-capped mountains and life as we know it here on earth.You haven't seen this through your telescope because it is on the farside ... &nbsp; <br />Posted by Smersh</DIV><br /><br />queue "pink floyd - dark side of the moon"<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-yell.gif" border="0" alt="Yell" title="Yell" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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Mee_n_Mac

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You haven't seen this through your telescope because it is on the farside ... &nbsp; <br />Posted by <strong>Smersh</strong></DIV></p><p><br />Naturally .... though I wonder how the aliens keep the&nbsp;atmosphere from leaking across ? </p><p>Also amazing they desire the same 1G gravity we happen to have.</p><p>Who gets to decide which false pics of the farside get to be published ?&nbsp; Is it a panel of US and Russian Freemasons or do the aliens decide ?</p><p>&nbsp;So many questions, so little incentive......</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>
 
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Mee_n_Mac

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You heave his balls out of it!&nbsp; <br />Posted by <strong>jonclarke</strong></DIV><br /></p><p>Probably a good idea.&nbsp;I don't want to Pisa the man off.&nbsp; <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>John Lear quote, from here&nbsp;The farside of the moon, which also has a breathable atmosphere also has lakes, rivers, forests, snow-capped mountains and life as we know it here on earth.You haven't seen this through your telescope because it is on the farside ... &nbsp; <br /> Posted by Smersh</DIV></p><p>Wow... this is so completely impossible, it's funny.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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Smersh

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Wow... this is so completely impossible, it's funny.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>Yes I know. It's like something out of Monty Python, isn't it? I find it hard to believe that John <em>really </em>believes all this.</p><p>I get the feeling he's a bit of a wind-up merchant, if you ask me ...&nbsp; &nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1><p><font color="#800000"><em>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."<br />Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."</em></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Website / forums </strong></font></p> </div>
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yes I know. It's like something out of Monty Python, isn't it? I find it hard to believe that John really believes all this.I get the feeling he's a bit of a wind-up merchant, if you ask me ...&nbsp; &nbsp; <br /> Posted by Smersh</DIV></p><p>You would be amazed at the gullibility of some people.&nbsp; The salloon I used to frequent had a patron we referred to as "Conspiracy Theory".&nbsp; And yes, we actually called him that to his face and he enjoyed it.&nbsp; He was a decent guy and rather intelligent (minus logical reasoning)... he just happened to believe pretty much every conspiracy theory out there.&nbsp; He was quite well informed about them, too.&nbsp; Though, I don't believe he was quite this extreme believing the far side of the moon having an atmosphere.&nbsp;</p><p>I think conspiracy theorists just fancy the notion that they "know" something the rest of us don't.&nbsp; Makes them feel special.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...I think conspiracy theorists just fancy the notion that they "know" something the rest of us don't.&nbsp; Makes them feel special.&nbsp; <br />Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p><span class="body"><font size="2">It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.</font></span>&nbsp; -- Mark TWain<br /><br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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derekmcd

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I've heard that one before... quite fitting.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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Mee_n_Mac

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<p>Just a thought that came to mind ... if we cross the "neutral point" btw the Earth and Moon does that mean we're in the Romulan sphere of influence ?</p><p>What I find fascinating is how .... hmmm .... <em>fervently </em>people of this ilk believe in, and will defend, this kind of conspiracy lunacy.&nbsp; You'd think that if you came to believe in such a thing (Moon is a populated&nbsp;alien spaceship with whom our leaders are in cahoots), you'd still recognize that it's a far out possibility; that there's still some chance you might be wrong and therefore temper your comments and rebuttals with a degree of caution.&nbsp; I can understand when RCH does his thing, he's caught on the ratwheel of "fame and fortune" (<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif" border="0" alt="Foot in mouth" title="Foot in mouth" />) and so he has to continue spewing forth to keep in the limelight (and make a $$ or two).&nbsp; But as for rest of the anonymous masses ... I just don't get the fervor involved.</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>
 
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