Ocean in Titan's north pole?

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titanian

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The Titan radar images have revealed a multitude of lakes at 78 degrees north latitude. At Titan's landing site ( -10 degrees south latitude ), no lakes or seas were observed. Perhaps that the lakes in Titan's north polar region are linked to lower temperatures. Titan might encounter major changes depending on the season because the obliquity of its rotation axis is higher than that of the Earth ( 26 degrees compared to 23.5) and the atmosphere is denser and deeper.<br />I've made some comparative calculations between Titan and the Earth:<br />Luanda ( Angola), 9 degrees south latitude ( around the same latitude as Titan's landing site),mean temperature in January: 26.7 degrees celsius.<br />Svalbard ( Arctic region ), 78 degrees north latitude ( similar latitude to Titan's lakes), mean air temperature in January: -15.3 degrees celsius.<br />The amount of energy received in Svalbard is around 80% higher than that of Luanda in this period of the year.<br />If we extrapolate that configuration to Titan, we have a surface temperature of -179.5°C in Titan's landing site ( -291 degrees Fahrenheit or 93.5 Kelvin )...<br />And if we postulate that at 78 degrees north latitude, the amount of energy received is also 80% higher than in Titan's landing site, we obtain temperatures which can drop as low as -192 degrees celsius ( -314 degrees Fahrenheit or 81 Kelvin ) that is not far from the melting point of nitrogen ( -196 degrees celsius ).<br />But the seasons might be well marked on Titan due to the obliquity and the deep atmosphere. So can we envisage seas of nitrogen if it's not methane or ethane?<br />If you ave any objection to the relevance of the analysis, don't hesitate to give your remarks.<br /><br />www.titanexploration.com<br /><br />
 
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Boris_Badenov

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That was an excellant post!!!<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> And thx for the great link<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>
 
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dragon04

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Titan intrigues me. While the surface temperature is cryogenic, atmospheric pressures are suitable for human habitation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>
 
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titanian

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Soon, we'll have a temperature map of Titan. So, we'll see if my calculations lead to data close to reality. But let's recall it's only a rough extrapolation which gives a 13 degree difference between Titan's landing site and 78 degrees north latitude. The calculations have not been validated. So if someone can check, it would be fine.<br />The flyby of October 9 should reveal new lakes.Let's wait.<br />My calculations made me realize that there is a little chance that the northern lakes might be composed of liquid nitrogen if it's not ethane or methane.<br />Perhaps, you will laugh at my calculations when temperature data and new secrets are unveiled!<br />Thanks for the precocious praise!<br /><br />www.titanexploration.com
 
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ittiz

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NASA seems pretty convinced they are methane/ethane lakes. Nothing not liquid and natural would be that smooth. Look here for what NASA has to say about some of these features.
 
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green_meklar

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Nothing not liquid and natural would be that smooth.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />What about a cooled liquid? Here on Earth we get ice on top of lakes that is usually very flat. And I assume that on Titan there's less danger of breaking the ice with meteors because of the thick atmosphere.<br /><br />I guess the final word is really the temperature, though. If there's nothing present there that would form ice sheets at that temperature, then it'd have to be liquid. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>________________</p><p>Repent! Repent! The technological singularity is coming!</p> </div>
 
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ittiz

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Only if it froze really recently. I think there is too much erosion on Titan for a froze over comet induced water pond to last for long. Also that many wouldn't make much sense.
 
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mithridates

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My favourite part about Titan is how with the gravity and air pressure, a person could just strap wings to themselves and flap them to take off.<br />The biggest problem with Titan is that the atmosphere isn't just unbreathable but is also a deadly poison, meaning that any leaks would kill a person pretty much right away. That's a pity. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>
 
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bdewoody

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Remember, as far as we know water is the only substance that in solid form is lighter than in liquid form and therefore forms an "ice" sheet on it's surface any other liquid would freeze from the bottom up. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>
 
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green_meklar

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Only if it froze really recently. I think there is too much erosion on Titan for a froze over comet induced water pond to last for long.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />That's possible. I didn't think the winds near the surface were very high, but I guess over millions of years they're quite high enough. Also, are you including the possibility of erosion by methane rivers or not?<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Remember, as far as we know water is the only substance that in solid form is lighter than in liquid form and therefore forms an "ice" sheet on it's surface any other liquid would freeze from the bottom up.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />True, but of course if it all froze eventually then you'd still end up with a flat frozen surface in the end. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>________________</p><p>Repent! Repent! The technological singularity is coming!</p> </div>
 
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CalliArcale

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>But given that 95% of Americans are about as literate in the sciences<br />as an alzheimer's patient, & as trainable, then one would expect those<br />confusions.... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I trust you are not referring to anyone else in this thread, stevehw33, although if it's not an ad hominem, that would make your remark a non sequitor. Certainly it's not a very friendly comment.<br /><br />NASA has indeed not said "these are definitely methane lakes". However, the Cassini team is very excited about these images, because they are consistent with lakes of liquid organic chemicals. This is the properly scientific way to express the discovery. It acknowledges that there may be doubters and that the doubters are not without a point. But it would be silly (not to mention unscientific) to claim that these cannot possibly be liquid lakes, or to claim that there is no evidence in favor of lakes of organic liquids. Attacking those who hold the same opinion as the Cassini scientists (that these are quite possibly lakes) isn't just silly and unscientific, though. It's downright spiteful and quite unneccesary to the discourse.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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green_meklar

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>And my favorite fact is that Titan is MINUS 160 C. and so cold that no known suit would long protect a person from that cold without them being solidly frozen so fast they'd hardly be able to fly, must less keep from having their bodies fractured when they fell.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Yeah, any suit used on the surface of Titan would have to have a lot of insulation and probably some artificial heating.<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>A cryogenically stable and not brittle robotic glider could be built for Titan. And deliverable at a cost of a few $100's millions...<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Meh, I'd prefer to see a balloon. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>________________</p><p>Repent! Repent! The technological singularity is coming!</p> </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

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Thanx, Calli!<br /><br />Always the truely rational one.<br /><br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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vonster

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Thanx, Calli!<br /><br />Always the truely rational one.<br /><br />MW<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br /><br />Yes, and i further move to have Calli's post made a sticky in every forum that steve frequents, <br /><br />... because more often than not he does exactly the same thing in every thread he posts in lol <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />.<br /><br />.
 
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Kalstang

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I have to add my thanks too Calli <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />When I saw that comment I came REAL REAL close to posting a very unfriendly comment back at him. I was sincerly hopeing that someone like you would come along and say it in a nicer way...I really dont want to get banned <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>
 
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ittiz

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><br />NASA usually has taken a good scientific position. They are NOT convinced of any position without any solid, confirmed scientific support. They may however, take a political position. But that does not necessarily constitute a scientific one.<br /><br />There is evidence of methane on the surface of Titan and in the atmosphere. That's very solid. There is NOT any confirming evidence of 'lakes' or 'oceans'. Nor is there ANY evidence of methan 'rain'. Those are NOT confirmed.<br /><br />Facts are toomany cannot see the difference between what a finding 'might' mean, versus what is not known or known to any degree of reliability.<br /><br />There are NO known "lakes' or "oceans' on Titan. There are some areas which might be interpreted as such, but this does not mean those features ARE that.<br /><br />This is a highly significant difference between a fact and an hypothesis. and as anyone with any scientific training knows, there is often a whole Universe of difference between the two.<br /><br />But given that 95% of Americans are about as literate in the sciences as an alzheimer's patient, & as trainable, then one would expect those confusions.... <br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Notice I didn't say that lakes existed, also note that I didn't say "NASA is convinced." Although the person who wrote the description of the image I linked seems to be and even calls the feature a "lake" in the description. I am molecular biologist and have been involved in research in Calpain proteases as recently as last spring so I am quite aware of the difference between fact and hypothesis.
 
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CalliArcale

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What I'm saying, stevehw33, is that you are being unneccesarily hostile on this subject. I don't think anyone in this thread has expressed an opinion that these can't possibly be anything other than lakes. It's just that most of them are excited by the very real possibility that they might be lakes. Why condemn them just for having an opinion which you do not share? Is it suddenly forbidden to speculate about things?<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>But, who knows? There are NO lakes on Titan.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />For someone who got awfully hostile towards other members (even resorting to borderline ad hominem) for describing these things as lakes, that's a pretty disingenuous statement to make. What is your evidence that these are definitely not lakes? How do you intend to prove this negative? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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Kalstang

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>For someone who got awfully hostile towards other members (even resorting to borderline ad hominem) for describing these things as lakes, that's a pretty disingenuous statement to make. What is your evidence that these are definitely not lakes? How do you intend to prove this negative? <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />If I wasnt married (and you werent.?.)............................................................................<br /><br />Sorry its just that he's been doing things like that for so long its nice to see a moderator say something <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>
 
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telfrow

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It's difficult to fault anyone for discussing the possibility of lakes on Titan when the Cassini site carries photo captions indicating NASA believes they are there.<br /><br />Shorefront Property, Anyone?<br /><br />"This <b>lake</b> is part of a larger image taken by the Cassini radar instrument during a flyby of Saturn's moon Titan on Sept. 23, 2006. It shows <b>clear shorelines that are reminiscent of terrestrial lakes</b>. With Titan's colder temperatures and hydrocarbon-rich atmosphere, however, <b>the lakes likely contain a combination of methane and ethane, not water."</b><br /><br />Titan's "Kissing Lakes"<br /><br />"This Cassini radar image shows <b>two lakes</b> "kissing" each other on the surface of Saturn's moon Titan. <br /><br />The image from a flyby on Sept. 23, 2006, covers an area about 60 kilometers (37 miles) wide by 40 kilometers (25 miles) high. <br /><br />This pass was primarily dedicated to the ion and neutral mass spectrometer instrument, so although, the volume of radar data was small, scientists <b>were amazed to see Earth-like lakes.</b> With Titan's colder temperatures and hydrocarbon-rich atmosphere, however, <b> the lakes likely contain a combination of methane and ethane, not water.</b> <br /><br /><i>(Emphasis added.)</i><br /><br />Perhaps the discussion of whether factual evidence exists that these are, indeed, methane/ethane lakes should be addressed to the Cassini team and not the posters in this thread. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>
 
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telfrow

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From my previous post: <i>Perhaps the discussion of whether factual evidence exists that these are, indeed, methane/ethane lakes should be addressed to the Cassini team and not the posters in this thread.</i><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>
 
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green_meklar

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>There is a HUGE difference between being a critical thinker & being hostile. The latter is an inference. The former is good part of how good science is being done.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />There's also a difference between speculation and lies. Saying 'There could be methane lakes on Titan!' is speculation, while saying 'Titan is covered in giant purple aliens who want our women!' is a lie. So far, it seems to me that most of the people in this thread are engaging in speculation, not lying.<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>OCEANS on Titan is not true. It is not confirmed.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />It is not confirmed, no. It might well be true, but unfortunately its truthfulness can't really be debated because at the moment there just isn't very much data either way. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>________________</p><p>Repent! Repent! The technological singularity is coming!</p> </div>
 
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CalliArcale

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Well, I'd say that so far the data is starting to turn a bit against oceans on Titan; the imagery is starting to cover a pretty significant portion of Titan without turning up oceans. These features, if lakes, are not nearly big enough to qualify as oceans.<br /><br />But they're still immensely interesting, and it's worth exploring the possibility that they are lakes. Liquid surface methane on Titan is plausible, and so far the data obtained is supporting Titanian lakes. There's definitely enough evidence to make the subject worth exploring further. People not wishing to explore the possibility of Titanian lakes certainly don't have to; there are lots of other very interesting topics to discuss here at Uplink, and I could see opening a second thread to discuss alternate possibilities for these features. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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ittiz

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So recognizing that NASA's web site isn't peer reviewed it should be obvious that a web site, which is open to public debate like this one, isn't peer reviewed (in the sense of a scientific journal) either. So why hound people for writing things which aren't up to journal article standards?
 
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Kalstang

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>One is simply pointing out the extent to which some exobiophiles will go to promote a totally unsupported idea, that life exists outside of the earth in our solar system.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />You know between the above quote and all of your other posts it has just occured to me that you have a fear of there being life in this solar system? Maybe an unacknowledged one? I am not saying this is true or fact by any means. But in all your posts you vehemently continue to say in such a way as to make it fact (to you) that there is no life in this solar system. "that we have done an extensive search and found nothing" <br /><br />Just a thought. <br /><br />In any case the totally "unsupported idea" is a bit wrong also. There are quite a few ideas that support life in our solar system. And even a few organisims that suggest that they can live in some of the most extreme conditions that is present in our solar system. Like the organisms on that one lunar lander that stayed alive and dormant for three years. Or the organisims that have shown that they can even live in acid pools and toxic waste. We may not have found any yet but as has been said countless times before. We have barely even scratched the surface of exploreing our solar system yet. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>
 
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CalliArcale

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The data are NOT "turning a bit against oceans". The data are that Titan is at Minus 160 C. & so far, totally against it. One does not easily overcome those data.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Oh dear; we're going back to that, are we? Your perverse assumption that by "ocean" we must all be referring to liquid water, even though it's pretty darned obvious from the posts in this thread that we're talking about organic chemicals?<br /><br />Look, stevehw33, over the years you have successfully run quite a few threads on the possibility of extraterrestrial liquids into the ground. Please do not do the same to another one. If you have nothing more to contribute on the subject besides scorn, you may want to consider moving along to another thread. Other people have new contributions on this subject and you are not giving them a fair chance to discuss. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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