One day Natural Satellite of Earth (moon) would travel around the Sun instead of Earth in our Solar

aulfat_hussain · May 7, 2008

One day Natural Satellite of Earth (moon) would travel around the Sun instead of Earth in our Solar System. (Imagination)   If we observe functionality of Planets in our Solar system then we can imagine about some topics, which are not observe in this age of time it is due to the fact the natural phenomenon of massive objects like stars, planets and moons take plenty of time to change their status. It is impossible for Human to be alive for thousand and more than thousand centuries to observe the phenomenon of stars, planets and moons, but it is possible for one point, this age of time to be phenomenon time of any star, planet and others. Our period of life is very short but brain’s of human are infinite and also we are living things of this universe.  We know that mass and age of our Star (sun) in our Solar System increases day by day beside that its force of attraction also increases then it will not let the closer Planets, that their moons move around them because of strong attraction of Sun, like the inner planets Mercury and Venus they don’t have moons presently but I can say or I can imagine may be in the past one of them was planet and one of them was moon, like we know about Venus orbital movement and its spinning is quite different from other planets in our Solar System.  It is just my simple imagination, Venus and Mercury one of them was moon but now it act as a planet.   Give your imaginations and what do you think ….   RegardsAulfat Hussain <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

derekmcd · May 7, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>We know that mass and age of our Star (sun) in our Solar System increases day by day beside that its force of attraction also increases... Posted by aulfat_hussain</DIV>Quite the opposite is true.  The Sun is constantly losing mass through the solar wind, coronal mass ejections and by converting matter into energy via nuclear fusion.  Several billion kilograms per second are lost.  Don't worry, though... the sun has enough to last for several billion years more.Through a completely different process, the planets are actually receding from the Sun.  The same process that is causing to moon to recede from Earth.  Tidal friction and the conservation of angular momentum are the main causes.  But it is happening very, very slowly... so slow as to be immeasureable. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

Saiph · May 7, 2008

If you look at the moons orbit from the sun's point of view, it is already orbiting the sun!  Granted, this can be said about any moon in the solar system, as they all orbit planets that orbit the sun. The moon's primary orbit though, is around the sun.  The sun's gravitational influence is stronger on the moon than the earth's! To visualize what's happening stick the earth and moon in concentric orbits around the sun, two circles one slightly outside the other (make the moon the outer for now).  Without the earth, the moon orbits the sun, and vice versa.  Now, if you introduce the earths' gravitational influence, the moon's orbit gets warped a bit.  It takes on a very shallow sinusoidal shape /_/ as the moon goes in and out a bit from it's previously unperturbed orbit.   It doesn't even make "loops" or retrograde motion around the earth...it's always going in the same direction relative to the sun. In more elaborate terms:  The moon on the outside orbit is passed by the earth.  As the earth is behind the moon in the orbit, it pulls it back, robbing it of energy, causing it to drop in towards the sun.  But the earth passes the moon, so the moon drops in towards the sun, but behind the earth.  Now, closer to the sun, the moon passes the earth, and is pulled forward by the earth, giving it more energy...causing it to swing up and out back to the outside orbit...but because it's now going faster than the earth, it passes IN FRONT of the earth.  Rinse and repeaat.Basically the earth and moon keep pulling on eachother like enthusiastic kids in a footrace, and keep cutting eachother off in the process.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Boris_Badenov · May 8, 2008

I wonder if it is possible to predict where the Moon will go when it finally stops orbiting Earth. Further, I wonder if it will collide with Earth again & create another natural satellite. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div> </div>

CalliArcale · May 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I wonder if it is possible to predict where the Moon will go when it finally stops orbiting Earth. Further, I wonder if it will collide with Earth again & create another natural satellite. Posted by boris1961</DIV>It won't stop orbiting Earth.  The two are bound together.  It will continue to recede until tidal equilibrium is reached -- when the Earth and Moon become mutually synchronous.  Pluto and Charon are in this relationship already, which means that one Pluto day = one Charon day = one Charon orbit.  Charon is forever fixed at a single point in Pluto's sky, while the stars wheel endlessly behind it and Charon goes through its phases. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Saiph · May 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It won't stop orbiting Earth.  The two are bound together.  It will continue to recede until tidal equilibrium is reached -- when the Earth and Moon become mutually synchronous.  Pluto and Charon are in this relationship already, which means that one Pluto day = one Charon day = one Charon orbit.  Charon is forever fixed at a single point in Pluto's sky, while the stars wheel endlessly behind it and Charon goes through its phases. Posted by CalliArcale</DIV> To elaborate, it is possible for a satellite to be ejected from a system using the mechanisms present in the earth-moon system.  However, for it to work for us, the earth would have to have been spinning much faster.  Conditions as they are, the moon and earth will reach an equilibrium (basically I'm saying Calli's right, just trying to avoid the implication that it HAS to be this way).Also, unless something really strange happens, the moon will no collide with the earth.  By wierd, I mean a massive (really massive..like nearly the moon's mass) rogue planetoid zips past the earth and moon.  Maybe then...maybe. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

silylene old · May 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> To elaborate, it is possible for a satellite to be ejected from a system using the mechanisms present in the earth-moon system. ........ Posted by Saiph</DIV>4 billion years from now, when the sun expands so that it envelops the earth and moon, and cooks both planetary objects, I think that the moon ever so briefly will be released from earth's grasp.  [Or not (?)]A possible scenario of 4B years from now:  I imagine that complexities of tidal friction, plus the increasing drag the moon experiences in the sun's coronosphere, plus the mass loss as the moon's rocks evaporate away in the intense heat and solar flux will increase the moon's orbit until it is not difficult for the sun to pull it away.  Ever so briefly, the moon will become a free planet.  Then shortly afterwards, the now independent moon burns up in the sun's photosphere......And not too many years later, the more massive earth will burn up too, and become one with the sun. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

derekmcd · May 9, 2008

More of a thought experiment than me positing a legitimate question.  When the earth and moon finally become tidally locked, the earth will still succumbing (immeasurably slow, i know) to the tidal forces of the sun.  Let's assume the earth and moon survive the red giant phase of the sun and retain their mass (this is quite plausible).  The sun, being a white dwarf, would still be the dominate force in the solar system and have an affect on the earth through tidal mechanisms.  At this point, the white dwarf would be slowing the earth's rotation down.Does the moon's orbit slow down due to tidal deceleration and begin falling back towards the earth?  It would be orbiting faster than the earth rotating, so I would assume the opposite would happen than what we observe now.Does the moon/earth remain tidally locked?  Would this cause the moon to also slow down because the earth rotation is slowing down?  Would this result in the moon slowly decreasing it's orbital radius until the earth was finally tidally locked with the sun resulting in it landing in the L1 point of orbit.  At this point, I would guess it's orbit becomes unstable and possibly gets ejected.Or would it oscillate back and forth between tidal acceleration and braking?  Perpetually transferring momentum back and forth.I'm sure there's and n-body solution in there somewhere, but I have no illusions I could figure that out. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

Boris_Badenov · May 11, 2008

I love threads like this because they make look up the subjects in much greater detail than I normally would.For example, I have read in a number of places that the Moon is moving about a mile further away from the Earth about every 28,000 years. What I have not found, is why it would not stop receding & become an independent satellite of the Sun. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div> </div>

Saiph · May 11, 2008

the reason it would stop, is that the mechanism that causes the recession would stop.

Basically the moon is stealing energy from earth's rotation, via the tides, and that energy causes the moon to move further out from the earth.  This works, because the earth is rotating faster than the moon orbits.  But, as it's stealing energy from this rotation, the earth slows down.  When the earth rotates at the same speed the moon orbits, the energy transfer will stop.  Simulations and calculations show that this occurs before the moon is far enough away to be independent.I'm trying to recall the final length of earths day (and the moon's orbital period)..and two numbers come to mind, either 48 or 72 DAYS long...  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

derekmcd · May 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I love threads like this because they make look up the subjects in much greater detail than I normally would.For example, I have read in a number of places that the Moon is moving about a mile further away from the Earth about every 28,000 years. What I have not found, is why it would not stop receding & become an independent satellite of the Sun. Posted by boris1961</DIV> What is actually, physically, happening is the moon's gravitational pull creates a bulge on the earth surface.  Because the earth is rotating faster than the moon, that bulge creates a non-symmetrical gravitation force between the earth and moon.  The bulge is always slight ahead of the moon.  With it being slightly ahead, it creates a minor sling shot effect on the moon.  Basically, the earth's bulge is trying to throw the moon off into a straight line, ultimately causing the orbit to recede.The earth's rotation is slowing down because the moon is slight behind that same bulge.  The moon's gravitational pull is tugging back on that bulge acting as sort of a brake slowing our rotation down.The whole process stops when the moon and earth are in equilibrium... completely, tidally locked.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

MeteorWayne · May 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> What is actually, physically, happening is the moon's gravitational pull creates a bulge on the earth surface.  Because the earth is rotating faster than the moon, that bulge creates a non-symmetrical gravitation force between the earth and moon.  The bulge is always slight ahead of the moon.  With it being slightly ahead, it creates a minor sling shot effect on the moon.  Basically, the earth's bulge is trying to throw the moon off into a straight line, ultimately causing the orbit to recede.The earth's rotation is slowing down because the moon is slight behind that same bulge.  The moon's gravitational pull is tugging back on that bulge acting as sort of a brake slowing our rotation down.The whole process stops when the moon and earth are in equilibrium... completely, tidally locked.  Posted by derekmcd</DIV> That's a very clear statement of how it works.Thanx!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

aulfat_hussain · May 14, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If you look at the moons orbit from the sun's point of view, it is already orbiting the sun!  Granted, this can be said about any moon in the solar system, as they all orbit planets that orbit the sun. The moon's primary orbit though, is around the sun.  The sun's gravitational influence is stronger on the moon than the earth's! To visualize what's happening stick the earth and moon in concentric orbits around the sun, two circles one slightly outside the other (make the moon the outer for now).  Without the earth, the moon orbits the sun, and vice versa.  Now, if you introduce the earths' gravitational influence, the moon's orbit gets warped a bit.  It takes on a very shallow sinusoidal shape /_/ as the moon goes in and out a bit from it's previously unperturbed orbit.   It doesn't even make "loops" or retrograde motion around the earth...it's always going in the same direction relative to the sun. In more elaborate terms:  The moon on the outside orbit is passed by the earth.  As the earth is behind the moon in the orbit, it pulls it back, robbing it of energy, causing it to drop in towards the sun.  But the earth passes the moon, so the moon drops in towards the sun, but behind the earth.  Now, closer to the sun, the moon passes the earth, and is pulled forward by the earth, giving it more energy...causing it to swing up and out back to the outside orbit...but because it's now going faster than the earth, it passes IN FRONT of the earth.  Rinse and repeaat.Basically the earth and moon keep pulling on eachother like enthusiastic kids in a footrace, and keep cutting eachother off in the process.  Posted by Saiph</DIV> I am satisfy that the moon already orbiting the sun but right now it doesn’t act as independent planet like others.The receding of moon from earth and receding of planets from the sun shows the moon finally would come in to independent orbit around the sun. In this point I have simple ideas about decreasing spinning of earth and moonSpinning of earth decrease and also spinning of moon decrease more than the earth. The effect of receding also bring negative result on attraction of earth, so it becomes one time the spinning of sun (attraction) become case to eject moon from the orbit of earth. The moon will take a path around the sun and it would act as a planet between earth and mars.Now the spinning of earth is 0.5 km/h and the length of day is approximately 23.934 solar hours. The length of day increases 1.5-2 millisecond app. per century. It will take much of time to happen such process before it, the earth would boil and no living things would remain or either human shift to outer planet.If we think about gravity of planets then we can point a little, mass of planets not only form gravity but density and spinning also take partial part on forming of gravity. If it not likes so why stars, planets and moons are spinning at different rate and also they have different gravity.Now who is ready to clearly explain why earth is spinning?    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

derekmcd · May 14, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Now who is ready to clearly explain why earth is spinning?    Posted by aulfat_hussain</DIV> Conservation of angular momentum. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

aulfat_hussain · May 15, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Conservation of angular momentum.  Posted by derekmcd</DIV> I think this is not complete answer .. it need more explanation and information for proving of it. Now we know that earth and other planets are spinning in clockwise direction but venus spin in anti-clockwise direction. Why there is difference between them. http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Forums/# http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Forums/#  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/10/8ff35ab6-aab1-4021-9a2e-437683dc3322.Medium.jpg" alt="" />     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · May 15, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I think this is not complete answer .. it need more explanation and information for proving of it. Now we know that earth and other planets are spinning in clockwise direction but venus spin in anti-clockwise direction. Why there is difference between them.      Posted by aulfat_hussain</DIV> Actually it's quite complete. It is the answer to why all objects in the Solar system spin.It's BASIC physics.Now as to how different planets and moons have different amounts of angular momentum, that is a different question. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

CalliArcale · May 15, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Actually it's quite complete. It is the answer to why all objects in the Solar system spin.It's BASIC physics.Now as to how different planets and moons have different amounts of angular momentum, that is a different question. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Well, it's complete, but not very useful to someone who doesn't have all of the physics at hand.  ;-)Most bodies in the universe spin.  Lots of things can start them spinning, and once they're started, they'll keep spinning the same way until something happens to change that spin.  Things run into other things, gravity tugs in different ways on different parts of each object, and so forth.  But the initial spin of each planet is thought to have come from the movement of the cloud of dust and gas from which it formed.  The Earth was once just a mass of stardust.  That dust accumulated over time, gradually growing bigger and bigger (sort of like a snowball rolling across a snowfield), until it became planet-sized.  The individual dust particles weren't all neatly zipping together; rather, they were moving around the solar system, roughly along the plane of the Earth's present orbit, and mostly all in the same direction.  The fact that they weren't all moving the same way is what started the Earth spinning -- the momentum of each tiny dust particle was conserved.  The net motion is a spinning Earth, revolving around the center of the solar system.  Cool, huh?  Even tiny, seemingly insigificant things can have huge consequences if you give it enough time.  ;-)  This is of course related to why the planets (including Venus) all go around the Sun the same way -- just as conservation of momentum set the Earth to spinning, it also set the primordial dust cloud from which the solar system formed to spinning. Most planets rotate the same way, with a few notable exceptions: Venus and Uranus.  Venus is said to have an axial inclination of 177.36 degrees.  (Earth is 23.45 degrees.  The "straightest" planet is Mercury, followed closely by Jupiter, at a mere 3.13 degrees.)  This is almost 180 degrees, which basically means Venus' axis is tilted just 2.64 degrees and rotating backwards (retrograde).  Uranus is 97.86 degrees, which is technically retrograde (anything over 90 is retrograde), but since it's basically on its side, whether it's retrograde or not is a somewhat of a semantic question -- depends on what you call its north pole.  In both cases, many planetary scientists suspect that there was some kind of massive collision that knocked the planets around.  There are other factors in both planets.  Venus has an extraordinarily long day (243 Earth days, which is longer than its year).  Scientists had actually thought that Venus was tidally locked with the Sun for a long time, before anybody worked out that it actually was rotating, just very slowly.  (By chance, the few radar observations of Venus had been conducted when the same side was facing Earth.  The Magellan spacecraft's continuous radar observations revealed the truth.)  Uranus is much harder to study, being so distant from Earth and being a gas giant.  It was visited by Voyager 2, revealing that oddly, its magnetic field is not centered on the planet's center, and is tilted 60 degrees to the planet's rotational axis.  Uranus may also have been struck by a massive impactor, but nobody really knows. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

derekmcd · May 15, 2008

Thanks for the details Calli... I was being a bit smart alecky with my response based on how the question was posed.  It was still a good answer, though, based on the question. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

MeteorWayne · May 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanks for the details Calli... I was being a bit smart alecky with my response based on how the question was posed.  It was still a good answer, though, based on the question. Posted by derekmcd</DIV> I too was rather snarky, for 2 reasons.1. SDC was all hosed up yesterday, and 2. This is a woo woo thread that does not belong in this forum. But since threads can't be moved, this has led to a serious decline in the scientific standard of discussion here at SDC, and it frustrates the hell out of me.But you, Calli, have far more patience. I would have more, in the appropriate forum, but I get damn cranky when I see this kind of stuff in this forum. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

One day Natural Satellite of Earth (moon) would travel around the Sun instead of Earth in our Solar

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