Physics degree

[Ishimura_]

I'm thinking of getting a degree in Physics, but was wondering about the job opportunities. For example, with a BS are there many opportunites? My brother has a BS in Chemistry and he is basically a lab helper for a research institute, with no hand in the actual research (preps petrie dishes, washes the flasks, etc.). I am curious if this is the same for Physics.

 

[darkmatter4brains]

It depends on what you want to do.

But, if you want to be in cutting-edge research you're definietly going to want a pHD, and may even need to get a postdoc.

The higher the degree the better off you'll be, in terms of opportunities, and jobs available to you, as well. There's some stiff competition thanks to the economy these days too.

 

[drwayne]

If I were going to try and get out in the market with a BS in Physics, I would want to have a good minor
in there, and skill in computers.

Keep in mind that a Masters in a Physics path tends to be a - secondary degree. A consolation prize when they
ask you to leave, or something you happen to get on the way to your Ph.D.

A Ph.D. gives also gives you options, and opens some doors, but you still might not make that much more than
a BSEE.

Wayne

 

[Saiph]

That is exactly what I'm finding right now. The physics degree is a big plus...but people don't quite know what to do with it by itself. I'll likely be going back to tack on some second B.S. ... i just don't know what.

 

[ramparts]

Yeah, as others have said, a physics bachelors isn't enough to do research. If you want to do research, you get a PhD. (And then you do a postdoc, as darkmatter said, though I'd add that every PhD pretty much has to do a postdoc or two after graduating.)

There are job opportunities with a physics BS though, things that aren't quite research-related but require either a knowledge of physics or some of the computer skills or critical thinking skills you get from a physics major.

 

[drwayne]

Yeah, as others have said, a physics bachelors isn't enough to do research. If you want to do research, you get a PhD. (And then you do a postdoc, as darkmatter said, though I'd add that every PhD pretty much has to do a postdoc or two after graduating.)

There are job opportunities with a physics BS though, things that aren't quite research-related but require either a knowledge of physics or some of the computer skills or critical thinking skills you get from a physics major.

If one is going to remain in academia, then the odds are very long that you will go into some Post-Doc program.
I remember back in the 80's knowing some people who did multiple Post-Docs. The alternative is ending up at
a smaller school, but in recent years, such positions have been harder to come by.

You can improve your odds here if you have an advisor with a reasonably high profile, and you publish
and network extensively during your graduate career. This approach requires a lot of initiative, time and
people skills, and a lot of luck (right advisor in the right field and the right time - this can be quite hard)

A Ph.D. going to industry, as I did, tends to take a more direct approach. Note though that you can also
end up like me, as a problem solver, doing a lot of technical tasks that have little to do with all that Ph.D.
work. (Never thought I would be doing brain surgery with a Physics Ph.D., but hey, it has it's moments)

 

[csmyth3025]

It depends on what you want to do.

But, if you want to be in cutting-edge research you're definietly going to want a pHD, and may even need to get a postdoc.

The higher the degree the better off you'll be, in terms of opportunities, and jobs available to you, as well. There's some stiff competition thanks to the economy these days too.

I'm kinda embarrassed to ask this, but after getting a PhD how do you "get a postdoc".

The reason I ask this is I ran across the following passage in the Wikipedia article on Albert Einstein:

On 30 April 1905, he completed his thesis, with Alfred Kleiner, Professor of Experimental Physics, serving as pro-forma advisor. Einstein was awarded a PhD by the University of Zurich. His dissertation was entitled "A New Determination of Molecular Dimensions".[32] That same year, which has been called Einstein's annus mirabilis or "miracle year", he published four groundbreaking papers, on the photoelectric effect, Brownian motion, special relativity, and the equivalence of matter and energy, which were to bring him to the notice of the academic world.

I'm not comparing anyone to Einstein, but do these four papers - published the same year he was awarded a PhD - constitute the sort of post-doctoral research you're suggesting?

Chirs

 

[darkmatter4brains]

It depends on what you want to do.

But, if you want to be in cutting-edge research you're definietly going to want a pHD, and may even need to get a postdoc.

The higher the degree the better off you'll be, in terms of opportunities, and jobs available to you, as well. There's some stiff competition thanks to the economy these days too.

I'm kinda embarrassed to ask this, but after getting a PhD how do you "get a postdoc".

The reason I ask this is I ran across the following passage in the Wikipedia article on Albert Einstein:

On 30 April 1905, he completed his thesis, with Alfred Kleiner, Professor of Experimental Physics, serving as pro-forma advisor. Einstein was awarded a PhD by the University of Zurich. His dissertation was entitled "A New Determination of Molecular Dimensions".[32] That same year, which has been called Einstein's annus mirabilis or "miracle year", he published four groundbreaking papers, on the photoelectric effect, Brownian motion, special relativity, and the equivalence of matter and energy, which were to bring him to the notice of the academic world.

I'm not comparing anyone to Einstein, but do these four papers - published the same year he was awarded a PhD - constitute the sort of post-doctoral research you're suggesting?

Chirs

I'm not sure myself exactly what constitutes a postdoc in all it's details, but it's usually some sort of formalized position that I believe does have a small salary.

I don't think Einstein was in an "official" postdoc position. But, what he did, far outshines what anybody on Earth has achieved in a postdoc postion to date!

 

[Saiph]

A 'post-doc' is a position you get in academia after your ph.d. thus the name. After you get your ph.d. you look around for post-doc positions, just like you would any other job really.

It's really a continuation of what you were doing before, you do research as you did as a graduate student, paired with an established faculty member who helps arrange funding, networking, and helps channel your talent (hopefully). The difference is you tend to be more of on a peer basis, than a subordinate advisor-student role, and have more independence, and are expected to really help with all their efforts to get funding and network, rather than observe and gratefully recieve the benefits . Essentially you work with them (instead of under them), and use their resources to publish more papers.

From what I gathered from friends when I was in graduate school it usually takes 2-3 post-doc positions, lasting about 2-3 years each (i.e. a decent length of research for a good paper) before you have a solid chance at landing a 'real' academic position, where you're a full professor or research scientist.

So, just to let you know, you spend 4 years (at least) getting your B.S., about 5 years (at least) getting your Ph.D. and another 4-9 years as a post doc before you land a tenured, secure academic researching/teaching job. So, assuming you started college at 18, you'll be 31-36 years old, on average, before you find any real job security..wait, you still have to get that tenure, another 2-4 years or so..., so you could be 40 before you find job security...there's a reason Tenure is so highly valued at colleges.

 

[drwayne]

I seem to recall at least one of the postdocs we had doing some teaching.

The folks that I saw that were not looking for such positions were basically shotgunning CV's
out to small schools all over the country, occasionally to Jr. Colleges. Keep in mind this was
back in the 80's.

 

[Saiph]

Nope, the junior college approach is still alive and kicking. One of my friends got his Ph.D. and taught at a junior college while he waited for his wife to finish. And there are those who either leave with just a masters, or get tired of 'academia' and head off to the highschools to teach.

Of course a good number forgo post-docs and head into the industrial sector too.

 

[drwayne]

"or get tired of 'academia' and head off to the highschools to teach."

My best friend in grad school, ironically named Wayne as well, did exactly that. He was always a good teacher,
and became an award winning teacher in high school.

I lost track of him a year or two ago - he was talking about going back to school - though schools were
talking like he would have to retake all his masters level classes.

 

[csmyth3025]

Thanks Saiph and drwayne.

It sounds like the timeline for acquiring a PhD in the physical sciences is as lengthy as the timeline for acquiring one in medicine (as in medical doctor).

I was looking through a list of fields in which PhD's are conferred - it's amazingly long (to me). I'm sure that they, too have to go through an equally lengthy and arduous period of education.

I tip my hat to all those who have been able to persevere.

Chris

 

[drwayne]

There is also floating around the Doctor of Science degree - Sc.D. - depending on the school, this degree
may be essentially the same or better or worse than a Ph.D.

 

[Ishimura_]

I'm still considering getting a Physics degree, but I came across this...

http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html

For those who are employed in a physics related field can you comment if this is true? Seems disheartening...

 

[drwayne]

You did note the date on the piece?

Overall, it seems in line with my earlier statements about the competitiveness of the academic market.

Depending on the industry, there are alternative avenues where you can do some research/publish.

Wayne

 

[darkmatter4brains]

I'm still considering getting a Physics degree, but I came across this...

http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html

For those who are employed in a physics related field can you comment if this is true? Seems disheartening...

Ishimura,

I think the best advice is to go after what you love and what you're passionate about, no matter what!

If you're truly following the path you're meant to be on, you'll excel at what you do, and doors will open for you. There might be hardships along the way, but the alternative of sitting in a career you don't find enjoyable is about the worst, despite job security or good pay.

If you love physics, go for it, and go all the way!

 

[yevaud]

Keep in mind that a Masters in a Physics path tends to be a - secondary degree. A consolation prize when they ask you to leave, or something you happen to get on the way to your Ph.D.

Yes, the dreaded, "Terminal Masters."

 

[drwayne]

My school was a little different than the norm when I went through, their degree path did assume that
getting your masters was a step in the process - and for most students that was a good idea.

Unless you were on some well mapped out plant to your research goals, the process of working though
a thesis was a good growth point. IMHO.

 

[yevaud]

That sounds familiar.

What I'd meant - and you too have no doubt seen this - it would generally be someone working towards their Doctorate, but was unable to do anything original, or had some other deficiency - so they terminate their degree endeavor at the Master's. Hence the "Terminal."

 

[drwayne]

Oh absolutely. In some cases the reason for the terminal aspect was that someone could not pass their
Ph.D. qualifiers. In some schools that was not an uncommon event.

I know preparing for, and taking my oral preliminary exam was one of the most stressful times of my life.
I have joked a few times that oral does not quite describe the type of probing involved.