physics question

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lunatio_gordin

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in a lot of the material i've been reading recently, one theory for the reason gravity is so weak in comparison with the other forces is that it "leaks out" of three dimensional space, into another dimension, those predicted by string theory. would it be unreasonable to find a way to perhaps harness some of the gravitons leaking away for an artificial gravity generator? is that even a legitimate excuse for science fiction?
 
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rogers_buck

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That's the problem with developed universes, they are allways dumping their graviton garbage on the neighboring branes...<br /><br />I don't think your question has a good answer at this time. For example, string theory/M-theory has a ways to go before it is proven by experiment let alone used in an enterprise of engineers. Besides, the technology of opening passage to adjacent branes is essentially worm-hole tech, so it is likely worm-holes themseleves would be the mode of transit.<br />
 
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lunatio_gordin

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well, think of this as an early test. we can't transport whole ships yet but we know how to collect gravitons that leak. once again, this is for sci fi purposes, so i'm just going to use it. That also can explain the more advanced aliens use of wormholes <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />
 
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vogon13

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gravity n. 1. the force of attraction by which terrestial bodies tend to fall towards the center of the earth.<br /><br />-Random House Webster's Dictionary<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>
 
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Saiph

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now, gravity <i>is</i> a force steve, we just believe we know and understand it's origins to a certain extent. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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toothferry

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you are both right. The "force"aspect comes into play as to the answer of the "what" that causes space/time to be "sucked" into objects with relative proportion to how massive it is (in the first place). <br /><br />If that force could be manipulated, we could perhaps learn to bend space/time at our own disgression through artificial means... for example we now have both magnetism and electro magentism, perhaps in the future we can have gravity and ??? gravity.
 
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lunatio_gordin

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gravity is considered a force, even if it operates differently from all others. Electromagnetism and the weak force have already been proved to be joined, and they suspect that at even higher temperatures the strong force is linked as well. But gravity is probably not linked with them.<br />regardless, they still call it a "force" and in any unified theory of everything gravity has to be addressed like the other forces.
 
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yevaud

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All of which may well go out the window when/if they find the elusive Higg's Boson... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>
 
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rogers_buck

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The space buzzer sounds - BZZZZZTTTTT. Unfortunately, sound doesn't travel in space (at least not at the present) so you'll have to imagine the BZZZZZTTTTT.<br /><br />Relativistic mass equivalency states that a photon has mass equivalent to it's kenetic energy. That's slightly important to understanding relativity so you might want to revisit the basics.<br /><br />E = hnu = mc^2<br />m = hnu/c^2<br /><br />Gravity is a fundamental force. The fact that its behaviour differs from E and from M and from nuclear weak force and from nuclear strong force is a consequence of the Higgs field that fills our universe. At high enough pressures and temperatures you achieve grand unification of all the forces and they are described by a single set of physical laws. Change the potential of the super cooled Higgs field that formed our universe and you will change the properties of these forces.<br />
 
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lunatio_gordin

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exactly. As i've said, they've already united three into the "Electroweak" force, and it's suspected they can lock in the strong force in a few more years. that leaves gravity. <br />
 
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siarad

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>as light has NO mass<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Surely that is no REST mass it certainly has mass.<br />Newtonion calculations curve light about twice the actual amount.<br /> Didn't some early last century experiment show this by apparent star displacement by our sun.
 
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majornature

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It is possible that gravity is not a force, but it is assumed that gravity is a force, a weak force, which makes sense. However, if gravity isn't a force, then how can the phenomenon of black holes be explained. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="2" color="#14ea50"><strong><font size="1">We are born.  We live.  We experiment.  We rot.  We die.  and the whole process starts all over again!  Imagine That!</font><br /><br /><br /><img id="6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264" style="width:176px;height:247px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/4/6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" width="276" height="440" /><br /></strong></font> </div>
 
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Saiph

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steve is saying it's entirely a consequence of the space-time regime, and while it mimics a force, it is an "illusionary" force, similar to how the centrifugal force is an "illusionary" force caused by non-inertial reference frames. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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rogers_buck

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The super symetry extended model seems to make the most sense to physicists at the mement. There is actually an excellent article on this topic in this months Sciam. Don't know if it is on their web site or not.<br /><br />According to some pundits, gravity might be just as strong a force as the others when you factor into the brew higher dimensions of string theory. One group has suggested that a possible source of dark matter is the gravitational "shadows" from objects in this universe (folded) or an adjacent inflated brane. There is also some speculation that expansion might be caused by gravitons being trapped in the Higgs field (I believe that is right) of an adjacent brane and thereby leaking away the attractive force from our universe - the analog of negative energy pressure. Some pretty wild thoughts...
 
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lunatio_gordin

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yeah. In my story, i'm using that theory to grab escaping gravitons.
 
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Saiph

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I've begun thinking about gravity a bit. one idea I've chucked around is just that, gravity leaking away (via supersymetry theories) and the shadow being the "dark" mater we see.<br /><br />However, dark mater also seems to have uniform and spherical halos, so I've toyed with some "quantum shadow" idea tied in with a bit of multiverse stuff. Basically all the possible orientations of a glaxy are present...gravitationally. <br /><br />Granted, it's pure speculation on my part, but fun to think about. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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rogers_buck

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Yeah, I don't cotton too well to the leaking gravitons and shadows ideas. They seem to be a bit too out there considering that the whole M-Theory package has yet to be proven and the best case for dark matter appears to have a "non-exotic" explanation. I'm referring to outter rim stellar velocities/central black hole size linkage.<br /><br />Now if you want a really, really, fantastic quantum methodology of propulsion, I would take a look back through these posts to a post that borman made. He posted about reasearch that dark matter/energy might be harmonics of inchoherent (non-integral) states at the time of inflation. Now if you could selectively interfere those states in the future you could engineer a situation where you space ship was comfortably accelerated to relativistic velocities by chance. All the histories would be consistent but you would be engineering reality in the next few moments for yourself. So much for free choice.<br />
 
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mrmorris

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My favorite part about warped space being the source of the 'attractive force' of gravity is that it handily explains the reason gravity works. Essentially, it means that 'gravity' is simply another way of saying 'inertia'. <br /><br />Objects following what appears to be a path 'curved' by gravity are actually following a path that is 'straight' in terms of space-time. Mind you, I haven't seen any really good (read simple) explanations of how concentrations of matter warp spacetime in the first place... but after you make that initial jump -- the remainder is very easy to follow.
 
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Saiph

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Steve, why do you attack me since I was supporting your statement?<br /><br />Saying light has mass, but no rest mass, is a valid statement btw, precisely because of the energy to mass equivelance <i>and</i> the observation of momentum in photons. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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kmarinas86

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<font color="yellow">Saying light has mass, but no rest mass, is a valid statement btw, precisely because of the energy to mass equivelance and the observation of momentum in photons.</font><br /><br />Umm.. so does that mean that a gamma ray photon has more never-resting mass than a microwave photon?
 
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Saiph

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here's a run down on light and "mass".<br /><br />http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/light_mass.html<br /><br />but yes, gamma rays would have more "mass" than microwaves. They certainly have more momentum. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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rogers_buck

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>> Light has momentum but no mass. I<br /><br />Your back in classic mode here so -0- mass times velocity is zero. Steve33 scratches his head...<br /><br /> />> f you state that photons have mass, then you have violated a fundamental finding in the sciences. <br /><br />I stated that photons have "mass equivalence". According to relativity a particle's equivalent mass is a product of its kinetic energy and the potential energy of its interactions divided by the speed of light. In normative circumstances a photons energy is its kinetic energy<br /><br />E = hnu<br /><br />Thus the equivalent mass of the photon is calculated from E's famous equation E=mc^2. Since you didn't follow the algebra<br /><br />hnu = mc*2<br />m = hnu/c**2<br /><br />It's just that simple and at the same time incredibly profound a beautifull.<br /><br />Now, perhaps in your universe, photons don't move. That gives them the newtonian mass of -0-, a frequency of -0-, and a wavelength that will blow your calculators mind. In my universe, photons don't do that. A mean old german named Heisenburg forbids them to.<br /><br /> />> End of story. Back to Physics 101, already! <br /><br />Uh huh.<br /><br /> />> Energy of a photon is calculated NOT by E=MC sq. but by E=hnu, "h" being planck's constant and 'nu' being the frequency of the light. We do not need your pseudoscientific rewrite of E=MCsq.! <br /><br />Just go off and read some basic physics please.... Your posts here are made with a bluster of authority and at best reflect a rudamentary understanding of the basics. If you are really interested in science you should make an effort to learn some. In the meantime, you really ought to refrain from making foolish posts.<br />
 
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dark_energy

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This is a question from grade 11 physics. On the worksheet I'm staring in front of me is a question, "What is your weight at the center of the earth?"<br /><br />Well, I used the formula mg=(GmM)/d^2 Where G is the Universal Constant of Gravitation, M is the mass of the earth, m is the mass of me, and d is the distance from the center of the earth from where gravity acts.<br /><br />Since d=0 in this case, wouldn't my weight be infinite? I asked my teacher and he said no. He said it would be 0, but x/0 is infinite, not 0. = He told me to find out why, and I still don't know why, so I'm asking here and asking for anyone who comprehends this question to answer.<br /><br />Sorry if this is in the wrong forum. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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kmarinas86

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You would possess no acceleration up, down, left, right, or forward and back. Without any acceleration you are weightless.<br /><br />You could imagine the earth being cut into slices, but unremoved from each other. Each piece would attract you with its own gravity. This puts a circumstantial limit on how much pressure can be in the center of the earth.
 
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