Problem Of Entropy

[abhinavkumar_iitr05]

Dear community member here I am posting this to just have an open disscussion on one of my problem.<br /><br />We all know that any thing will b in higher entropy state in the form of energy than in the form of mass.Right.Also law of thermodynamics state that the entropy of the universe is increasing.Then why the energy converted to mass in the beginning of the universe againt the law of nature?Does it not support the multi universe theory?Does it not mean that the universe was not originated as described by Big Bang?

 

[newtonian]

abhinavkumar_iitr05 - Indeed, you have hit on one of the problems with the Big Bang model - i.e. how the universe started with so much energy.<br /><br />Entropy would have the matter and energy before the origin heading towards a more stable state, not evolving into a big bang.<br /><br />Scientifically, there must have been a cause for the effect dubbed the big bang.<br /><br />The cause certainly was not entropy.<br /><br />The Biblical model has God as the Cause, and Isaiah 40:26 links plural forms of God's dynamic energy with the existence of stars.<br /><br />In other words, the Bible has the origin of our universe involving an open system thermodynamically speaking.<br /><br />Simply stated, the big bang was caused by addition of plural forms of energy from an outside source.<br /><br />Your noting laws of nature is also excellent. <br /><br />As an example, chemistry follows the laws of thermodynamics, including entropy.<br /><br />However, life (a very important part of nature) has chemistry quite different from non-living chemistry.<br /><br />One natural result is the difference between life and death - and one reason we cannot resurrect the dead is that we cannot (we are not intelligent enough???) reverse the switch from living chemistry to non-living chemistry.<br /><br />Specifically, many complex biomolecules are unstable - simply: life is characteristically unstable.<br /><br />The main reason for this is indeed entropy.<br /><br />Since life produces molecules which entropy disallows in origin of life synthesis experiments, one could say that life reverses entropy [actually, of course, life does not disobey entropy but rather informationally adapts to it so as to reverse the resulting chemical reaction products from stable and statistical to unstabble and informational).<br /><br />In summary:<br /><br />The problem of entropy, and observations in nature, argue against a chance origin of our universe by a simplistic big bang.<br /><br />Indeed, the fine tuning of our universe in

 

[alokmohan]

If big bang model is correct ,then.The talks about Bibilical astronomy seems irrelevant.

 

[newtonian]

alokmohan - Biblical astronomy presents a model consistent with entropy - do you have some other model in mind that is consistent with entropy for the origin of our universe?

 

[kmarinas86]

<font color="yellow">Dear community member here I am posting this to just have an open disscussion on one of my problem. <br /><br />We all know that any thing will b in higher entropy state in the form of energy than in the form of mass.Right.Also law of thermodynamics state that the entropy of the universe is increasing.Then why the energy converted to mass in the beginning of the universe againt the law of nature?Does it not support the multi universe theory?Does it not mean that the universe was not originated as described by Big Bang?</font><br /><br />Thermodynamic entropy is measured in Joules/Kelvin.<br /><br />Since the scale factor is inversely proportional the temperature of cosmic background radiation, the temperature of the universe is inversely propotional to the scale factor. According to the big bang, this has happened since the beginning. At the beginning, there was plenty of work potential available even though the universe was rather homogenous. Then there was matter which cooled (i.e. the dark age). But unlike the radiation, the matter started heating because of friction to do gravitational pressure, so the temperature of matter shot up, so as far as matter was concerned the rate of entropy decrease was reduced (inside collections of matter), because now matter particles were in closer proximity and better able to absorb the radiation of other matter. The cosmic background radiation largely remains unavailable, except for the portion that struck matter and got absorbed, so it's entropy continued to increase greatly.<br /><br />To put it very simply:<br />To huff is to decrease entropy. To puff is to increase entropy. To integrate is to decrease entropy. To disintegrate is to increase entropy. <br /><br />http://www.geocities.com/kmar86/huffandpuff.gif

 

[SpeedFreek]

Newtonian: You intrigue me <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> You use many quotes from the bible and thus I have assumed (maybe wrongly) that you have faith in God. And yet, your signature says "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" which seems to be the embodiment of logical thinking. Above, you seem to imply (or maybe I am just inferring it!) that god could simply be a superior extraterrestrial being. And from this I infer that you may be suggesting that god could just be an extraterrestrial force that created this universe. Which is plausible.<br /><br />The problem I have is with religious dogma, and I include biblical quotes in this category.<br /><br />So I find myself in the position of being an atheist. Not agnostic, but atheist. And yet I find the idea of a being from another universe creating this one plausible. But find the idea of God, as proposed by all the different religions, to be implausible. I think it comes down to first cause, once again. I can't believe that any entity "just is". Everything has to have come from somewhere, and due to some natural/scientifically understandable process. But once intelligence develops naturally somewhere, there is nothing to stop it creating other intelligences.<br /><br />Sorry for hijacking this thread by the way. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>

 

[newtonian]

speedfreek - Note that my signature is a quote from the Bible, AV or King James Version for 1 Thessalonians 5:21.<br /><br />I agree that it is an embodiment of logical thinking, and it is what I try to follow when posting at SDC.<br /><br />Yes, I do believe God is a superior, actually supreme, extraterrestrial intelligence. I agree it comes down to first cause.<br /><br />I believe God is the first cause - in fact the Biblical name of God, Jehovah, is taken from a Hebrew root for "to be" in the causative form and one definition is "He causes to be."<br /><br />In short, God is the first cause.<br /><br />To unhijack the thread, note that the original question has to do with cause and effect. <br /><br />My main point was that, as noted in the opening thread question, entropy is against a simplistic big bang model.

 

[newtonian]

stevehw33 - Do you have something of value to contribute to this thread?<br /><br />Why not try addressing my scientific input, such as concerning the origin of informational molecules and life in view of entropy's effect on non-living chemistry.<br /><br />Or, better yet, why not try answering the opening question of this thread?<br /><br />Another example: since entropy plus a closed system leads to models of heat death in our universe due to entropy - then why did it start out so hot in the first place?

 

[kmarinas86]

<font color="yellow">Another example: since entropy plus a closed system leads to models of heat death in our universe due to entropy - then why did it start out so hot in the first place?</font><br /><br />It's impossible to explain the origin of a truly closed system.<br /><br />The stock market can be explained by the people who created it (who existed before the stock market).<br /><br />The weather can be explained by the interaction between the sun, atmospheres, and precipitation of earth.<br /><br />Things can only be explained if object to be explain exists in an open system. Therefore, you can only contemplate the origins of all objects if you assume the universe is an open system.