Pushing Research and Technology Further and Smarter

Status
Not open for further replies.
P

planetling

Guest
There are many intelligent people on this board, with much more knowledge about infrastructure design, potential health concerns, etc. than I have. But I am a dreamer that has accomplished much in life just by keeping my nose to the grind stone and always moving forward. I have never let a challenge go untried!

I have seen new buildings constructed that were built with all the bells and whistles, considered the most technologically innovative structure ever made at that moment of time. But a mere year later, as other technologies became available, trying to retro-fit that building with the newest wiring or gadets became so difficult that it was not worth the investment. On the other hand, I have seen cheap square boxes erected with simple raised floors, all of the money was put into the infrastructure with no regard or investment made in high-tech cosmetic fluff. Years later these cheap buildings are still capable of being retro-fitted with the latest and greatest, ROI is an owners dream!

Whatever time it takes, however long it would take, would it not be practical to build such an economically cheap, very massive facility in LEO, so that when construction is finally complete all that is required to do is to retro-fit it with the latest modular equipment prior to departure? And if a few years down the road if equipment becomes obsolete, simply swap it out with smaller, lighter, more advanced components. And once built, all that would be required to push it out to Mars/Jupiter orbit would be to retro-fit it with a small but appropriate engine, since the structure will already be in space.

I can envision such a project. But this would swing completely opposite of current trend, and return to what made this country proud and prosperous almost a century ago, when business owners and investors planned and built for the long term. I can see an enormous structure built, including the simple-in-design centrifugal counterpart to go along with it. I can see this construct frequented by rotating teams of scientists, not only from the U.S., but from other countries willing to rent or donate possibly in the form of additional high-tech equipment, or replenishing materials launched with their own smaller craft.

I feel that the small maneuvers of the past couple of decades that have cost so much money, some of which were cancelled half-way through after spending millions/billions, has stagnated our ability to not only dream about the future, but to work specifically toward it.

IMO, directly contacting your state representative to voice your preference of 1 out of only 2 choices will still sell us short. IMO, sending up many, many robotic missions that focus only on a handful of experiments each only contributes to political grandstanding (even though we have learned somewhat from such experiments) and delaying what could potentially catapault us into a much brighter future.

I yield for comments.
 
Y

Yuri_Armstrong

Guest
I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Do you want a technologically primitive space station in LEO that is periodically upgraded with new technology until it can actually travel around the solar system? That's certainly an idea I've never heard before.
 
S

scottb50

Guest
Yuri_Armstrong":3qkehnj0 said:
I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Do you want a technologically primitive space station in LEO that is periodically upgraded with new technology until it can actually travel around the solar system? That's certainly an idea I've never heard before.

I'm reminded of Fudds third law of motion: Push something hard enough and it will fall over.
 
P

planetling

Guest
Yuri_Armstrong":2c21g5at said:
I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Do you want a technologically primitive space station in LEO that is periodically upgraded with new technology until it can actually travel around the solar system? That's certainly an idea I've never heard before.

One of the biggest issues in traveling around the solar system would be cost.

I am not saying to build it technologically primitive. What I am saying is, build it so that the craft would not be a throw away item a few years down the road, and if anything does become obsolete those parts would not be integrated so heavily into the craft that it would not be worth upgrading.

SkyLab, ISS, were built with specific configurations in mind and the basic infrastructures were heavily built to accomodate these configurations. Some modifications could be made to these craft but only to a limited degree. SkyLab ended up junk, as will the ISS someday. That is an enormous amount of dollars to just chuck back into the atmosphere.

It would make economic sense without a time-line to worry about to design such a structure with the full intent that it would be so modular that obsolescense over periods of time would not be a factor. The infrastructure itsself could be assembled in space relatively cheaply if spread out over time, parts of the infrastructure could be delivered to space, even as part of side-missions, and stored in orbit until a crew has enough parts to warrant a specific mission to perform assembly. If this were to take, say a decade for example, once complete, and as new technology is developed or new discoveries are made that would warrant specific and state of the art testing equipment, the infrastructure could then be simply outfitted with the latest and greatest modular components. Even 50 or 60 years out, the infrastructure being just a shell could support upgrades for that future time era.

Very simple but modular design of this approach would also allow the craft to grow in size, which could accomodate any number of crew (a mini city in space).

I just think that everything today, from walmart to space exploration, are throw-away items. Finances never fail to be the primary topic of discussion when discussing space travel, if we could only get our minds out of this tremendous rut that we've been in we could ultimately plan and realize such fantastic goals. In OUR lifetime.
 
A

annodomini2

Guest
I think one intepretation of the idea maybe that you could build initially a space station out of identical reusable modules (Think Shipping containers!)

Over a longer period of time as money, demand and technology allows.

Conceptually being that the generic design of the modules will allow for future upgrades.

Growing to a point where the 'machine' for lack of a better word becomes self supporting, i.e. doesn't need large quantities of resources from Earth, huge amounts of solar power etc.

Providing a propulsion system and allow the space city to move around the solar system, possibly even extra solar.
 
P

planetling

Guest
annodomini2 YES! Rather than thinking in or out of the box, you are thinking OF the box! Thank you for consolidating my lenghty explanation, at times I get too wordy without realizing it.


Containers is a great analogy, but I would like to deepen the discussion and discuss how an approach like this could be realized both finacially and in the construction phase.

What would be absolutely required at minimum to build such a shell? Protective layering? Provision for docking and/or resupplying? What type of truss system would work now and in the future? ETC., ETC., keeping in mind that anything built on or in the shell must be able to be upgraded if the need arises?
 
Y

Yuri_Armstrong

Guest
Ah, I understand now. I think that is a good idea, keeping a space station where it can be upgraded over time instead of getting rid of it 15 or 20 years after launch. They said they will try to keep the ISS going after 2020, but maybe they would be able to keep upgrading it over time instead of getting rid of it. Is it possible for them to add more modules to the ISS than what was originally planned? If so that falls in line with your idea.
 
R

rockett

Guest
Actually, exploring space in a movable space station is not a new idea. It was the premise for Space Family Robinson (Gold Key Comics) in the sixties. It was called "Space Station One".

In the comic, the Robinsons were: scientist father Craig, scientist mother June, early teens Tim (son) and Tam (daughter), along with pets Clancy (dog) and Yakker (parrot). They lived in "Space Station One", a spacious moving craft with hydroponic gardens, observatory, and 2 small shuttle crafts ("Spacemobiles"). In the second issue, a cosmic storm deposited them far from Earth and they have adventures while they try to work their way home.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Family_Robinson
 
P

planetling

Guest
Yuri_Armstrong":1xw5u26n said:
Ah, I understand now. I think that is a good idea, keeping a space station where it can be upgraded over time instead of getting rid of it 15 or 20 years after launch. They said they will try to keep the ISS going after 2020, but maybe they would be able to keep upgrading it over time instead of getting rid of it. Is it possible for them to add more modules to the ISS than what was originally planned? If so that falls in line with your idea.

I believe that additional modules could be added, though I do not know the specifics or what would be required to do so other than basic docking?

I am still thinking along the lines of how current infrastructure is being built today, and how it could be built tomorrow. Again, I am no expert, but looking over how the IIS was built I believe that its shell was designed specifically for the task at hand and everything that was going into it. Wiring, conduit, sensors, etc. all built within the shell most likely cannot be relocated, removed or modified due to design integration, I would surmise that 20 years down the road the ISS, specifically its shell, would be considered outdated and useless to even consider for the next project coming up.

A basic shell erected in space that would allow easy expandability: wiring, conduit, hydraulics and otherwise, sensors and such could be fashioned separate and aside from the interior shell in the form of panels and/or mounting points along the interior walls (NOT inside the framing). Not only could these be removed, upgraded or completely swapped out, but also provide for easy access for serviceability as well. This would also go for seating, monitor and science equipment, and anything else, etc. It may be decided that portions of the container would no longer be needed for a specific science experiment, instead of trashing that portion or entire shell, simply re-fit it with something useful. Pretty much a plug and play box!

With this approach I can't even imagine the dollars that could be saved (not only in reusing the shell, but also in eliminating additional launches to deliver a completely new station) while also allowing for enormous expandibility to actually have roomy, comfortable habitats.
 
F

flyer456654

Guest
I love this idea!

To summerize, you want to build an Airtight shell. The shell will provide power and thats about it. Then you want to lift up the internal structures and put it inside the shell (kinda like furniture). Then at any point in the future when something new and better comes out, we just remove the old furniture and move in the new furniture? So you just want a shell with a centerfuge that is completely empty and completely reuseable over the course of 100 years. Paging Bigilow...PLEASE DO THIS! :D
 
P

planetling

Guest
flyer456654 exactly, but the shell will not actually provide power or have engines built into it. Rather, mounting points would be equipped on the shell (with or without the use of trusses, whichever makes more sense) so that whatever engine module design is desired could be simply attached. If engine design does drastically improve, simply remove the old engine assembly and bolt up the new one. Again, another cost saving feature in that an entirely new spacecraft won't need to be built and delivered to space - an engine assembly would be far cheaper to piggy-back and launch.
 
P

planetling

Guest
Expanding on my above post, attaching an engine to a truss system separate from the station itsself would also benefit:

1. Since already in space, energy requirements would be far smaller than what is required for lift-off. The engine, be it nuclear, ion or whatever would be much smaller, thus a lift vehicle would easily be able to deliver it into orbit, released and then attached to the station.

2. The engine would be completely separate from the space station, yielding an isolated and safer environment for crew. If an engine blow-out were to occur, less or no damage to the station structure(s), simply replace the engine with another.

3. With many shells being able to dock or attach to the existing station for expansion, one of these shells could be used soley for fuel, again isolating it completely from the engine and crew. If the fuel would happen to rupture or blow, simply replace that section of the station.
 
V

vulture4

Guest
Early in the ISS program the objective of the entire program was to move in this direction, with a space station that could be expanded almost without limit in a modular fashion. However the Shuttle was critical to this; Shuttle and ISS together formed what was once called the "Space Transportation System". Unfortunately for many years ISS was delayed and Shuttle could not do effective science in the short time it could remain in orbit. Then we finally got ISS built, but former administrator Griffin and former president Bush did not understand the concept of doing practical work in space, or the manner in which Shuttle and ISS were designed to work as a team. They planned to cancel ISS, and succeeded in canceling Shuttle, which will make ISS expansion much more difficult.
 
E

EarthlingX

Guest
planetling":1u7lzvir said:
Well this is sort of along the lines of what I was hoping for.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38661352/ns ... nce-space/

Wishful thinking, perhaps, but for people here who know the inner-workings and budgetary expenditures of the ISS, is this really forseeable?
I doubt it, because it makes too much sense. Such things don't survive political decisions.

Original :

www.nasa.gov : Innovative Concepts for NEO Exploration (pdf)
by Brian Wilcox
10 August 2010
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts