Riddle me this about the sun going BOOM

lysol · Jan 5, 2007

Ok I have these wierd little bursts of insights now and again and I really think its a neat gift. Its allowed me to study and learn about so really out there stuff. This thought came to me and been wrapping my mind around it, and I am at the moment at my peak in my creativity (otherwise being &%$#@!faced drunk) and i completely dumbfounded myself and friends when I asked this question. Being as Im not capable of researching this on my on due to my near incapacitation. Here it goes. Ahem. If the sun were to explode, would you feel the gravitational impact on the Earth’s orbit before you saw the explosion eight minutes later? Why i asked this one. Only one of my mates knew what the hell I was talking about. Why are the two major theories in physics one dealing with stars and galaxies, the other with atoms and subatomic particles, both proved time and time again—mutually incompatible? Then the last one... Why is it with anything swirling around something else...be it flushing a toliet or a planet orbiting a star is the orbits more distant travel slower and the orbits closer travel faster around the star. But with stars orbiting galaxies...all the little start move at about exactly the same speed relative to each other should they be at the core or on the rim of the galaxy.

Mee_n_Mac · Jan 5, 2007

"If the sun were to explode, would you feel the gravitational impact on the Earth’s orbit before you saw the explosion eight minutes later?" Gravity is thought to propagate as the speed of light so in your hypothetical case we'd notice any gravitational disturbance (is there one ? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) at the same time we see it. I don't know that this has been proven to be the case experimentally but that's the theory I recall. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 5, 2007

Regarding part 2, I don't think you can say that they are mutually incompatible. They operate at vastly different scales, and a seamless transition between those scales hasn't been formulated yet. Regarding part 3, ("But with stars orbiting galaxies...all the little start move at about exactly the same speed relative to each other should they be at the core or on the rim of the galaxy.") That observation is exactly the evidence for dark matter. And it's not quite true that they all orbit at the same speed, it's just that the outer reaches rotate faster than expected by the distribution of the "normal" matter. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

lysol · Jan 5, 2007

Eh kinda wierd...always thought it was instant. Yeah know the multi-dimensional theories. Of course every time i tried to clock the speed of gravity on my stopwatch its effect has always been incrediabily fast. Oddly enough when i do the same light, i get the same result. I think i might need a better watch. But this puts into question, would we all have the "OH &%$#@! WE ARE DEAD" moment when we the sun explode or would the suddenly loss of gravitational force in the solar system be like a shockwave? Being we magically are not fried by the bad stuff that iniviably comes from our star blowing up in front of our eyes.

lysol · Jan 5, 2007

metoerwave, Hehe always called Darkmatter, the god gunk....Stuff we all think we know is there but really isnt but really are not sure if it is, only because we see something we dont know so i see that it has to be. Ok, hehe thanks for answering my drunken question....forgive my stab at you know 'what' and my horrid spelling.

yevaud · Jan 5, 2007

The propagation velocity of Gravity has been experimentally confirmed to be C. The results of these experiments were announced at the 2002 American Astronomical Society annual meeting in Seattle, Washington. The Measurement of the Light Deflection from Jupiter: Experimental Results (Citebase) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

SpeedFreek · Jan 5, 2007

But this puts into question, would we all have the "OH &%$#@! WE ARE DEAD" moment when we the sun explode or would the suddenly loss of gravitational force in the solar system be like a shockwave? Well, current theory is that our sun isn't going to explode as such, but will swell up into a red giant, engulfing the Earth. Depending on how long that swelling takes, and what solar disturbances precede it, we should get some warning it is going to happen! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> The red giant phase happens when a star has exhausted the supply of hydrogen in its core and switches to fusing hydrogen in a shell outside the core. Since the inert helium core has no source of energy of its own, it contracts and heats up, and its gravity compresses the hydrogen in the layer immediately above it, thus causing it to fuse faster. This in turn causes the star to become more luminous (from 1,000 to 10,000 times brighter) and expand; the degree of expansion outstrips the increase in luminosity, thus causing the effective temperature to decrease. But in all of this, there is not going to be any sudden change in gravity as there is no sudden change in mass. So the sun is not going to simply explode and lose most of its mass in one go! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> _______________________________________________ SpeedFreek </div>

nexium · Jan 5, 2007

"If the Sun were to explode." We are quite sure our sun cannot explode, but if our Earth orbited a Sun with enough mass to go super nova, the Sun's gravity would decrease very little (perhaps none) the first 10 minutes, after which it would decrease about 1% per minute as the supernova mass ejection limit moved past Earth's orbit. Only delicate instruments would detect the change in the sun's gravity which is not strong at our distance (92 million miles). This would be true, even if gravity propagates faster than the speed of light, except the gravity would start decreasing at about 9 minutes instead of 10 minutes. "same speed" We think we observe that the outer stars of a spiral galaxy travel faster in their orbit than the inner stars. The angular velocity is about the same. This is very counter-intuitive. The dark matter hypothesis attempts to explain this mystery. Neil

Saiph · Jan 6, 2007

well, we'd notice the gravitational disturbance after we see it. Why? Because even though the propagation of gravity is thought to be at the same speed as light, the matter of the sun doesn't move that fast. So you'd have to wait for the debri of the sun to shift for you to notice a change in the tidal forces, and wait for some of it to pass beyond earth's orbit to notice a decrease in the earth-sun gravitational attraction. As for why quantum and relativity don't match: First, it's a matter of scale. Both are correct within their regimes. I.e. large gravitational disturbances, long distances, and high speeds relativity works. Small distances, strong atomic forces, low mass, quantum works. Even so, there are some intermingling. Relativity is used in various models to help tweak and explain quantum effects. Without these adjustments the quantum predictions are wrong. For example relativity is used to understand degerneracy pressure. One reason why they are highly incompatible is the basis upon which they are formed (even at a mathematical level). Relativity uses a continous description of space-time. One can smoothly shift from any postion to another, in any size step. Quantum is,well, quantized. You can only shift by certain increments. Any "continuity" is merely an illusion, as it's made up of lots of little increments. Yevaud: IIRC there was a bit of controversy over that study in 2002. Basically many claimed that they actually re-confirmed the speed of light, and that they didn't actually measure gravity's effects. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

weeman · Jan 7, 2007

Lysol, I like the question that you ask. I don't think I have seen anyone on this board ask such a question. It is important to know that the gravity at the center of our Solar System won't vanish completely. From what we know of our own sun, we can conclude that it may die off as a white dwarf at the end of its life. So, gravity will still be strong at the center of the Solar System. White dwarfs are very interesting things, even though they aren't as mind boggling as neutron stars and blackholes! If our Sun leaves behind a white dwarf when it dies, it will still contain a large amount of mass. A white dwarf with a mass the same as the sun, would only be the size of Earth! Theoretically we would most likely experience these gravitational shockwaves (or whatever they might be) at the same time that the sun's light reaches Earth. However, we shouldn't lose sleep trying to comprehend exactly how it would happen! Whats more important to worry about is the sun's red giant phase, swallowing Earth in its wake. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Techies: We do it in the dark. "Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity." -Albert Einstein </div>

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