Saturn threw a comet out of the solar system at 6,700 mph. Here's how

The article does not explain the "how" of the title. Annoyingly, the paper reference also do not suggest a mechanism but is applying observational data. At a guess the ejections are due to momentum transfer from the planet (gravity assists).

In recent news, there is a work that shows how Sun, with the help of Milky Way gravitational disturbances, can trap ejected bodies up to planetary masses [ https://www.universetoday.com/16792...ur-sun-could-permantly-capture-rogue-planets/].
 
Both the article and the link in the post don't bother to explain the dynamics involved in such ejections and captures.

I think I understand the dynamics of ejections, which are similar the "gravity boost" trajectories we have already used successfully to get probes like the Voyagers out of our solar system.

The capture process seems to be similar to some of our lunar transfer orbits, where the spacecraft is in an orbit around Earth and is near its high point when the Moon "comes by" in its own orbit and provides a greater attraction to the spacecraft than the Earth does, so it begins to orbit the Moon. Substitute "galaxy" for "Earth", and "Sun" for "Moon" and the same thing that we do with a lunar spacecraft might happen with a rogue planet approaching the Sun.

Of course we also use rocket motors to stabilize and shape our spacecraft's orbit around the Moon. For the Sun capturing a rogue planet or something smaller, the same sort of deceleration process could occur gravitationally due to passage by other planets. That would be just the opposite of the ejection trajectory, with momentum being taken away from the interstellar body to one (or more) of the existing planets.

And that lost momentum is transferred to the existing planet(s), so if there is a lot of momentum transfer from a large interstellar body, our solar system could get significantly disrupted. Hoping that is an extremely improbable event. But, "trillions of rogue planets" is not really a comforting concept.
 
It's pretty cool to find one of the great tossers caught in a throw. :)

The Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud are comprised of those objects that got a more gentle toss, thus are still in the grips of the solar system.

The best models, IIRC, demonstrate that the early solar system dynamics is similar to a pin ball machine in all the kicks and tosses, including major orbital migration in and out by Jupiter and Saturn, possibly dancing together. The axial tilt of Uranus seems to reveal it got hit in the head with a fast ball. Then there's that 7 deg. axial tilt in the Sun relative to the ecliptic. Something very dynamic seems to have happened.
 
I think something big came through the Solar System early on. It either punched the Sun over by 7° or else it scattered the planets into a new orbital plane. It is not something that can be done from within a system, must be an outside influence. In this case, a big one.
 
Isn't the theory that the Sun was born in some sort of dense cloud of gas and dust that also created multiple other stars in much closer proximity than the Sun has to other stars today?

If so, there may have been multiple ways for the Sun and/or the Sun's protoplanetary disk to have been tilted by gravitational or physical collisions.
 
If a body runs through the trailing part of a moving planet's mass field it transfers inertia/speed to the body & subtracts it (vector energy) from the planet.

Conversely if a body runs through the leading part of a moving planet's mass field it subtracts inertia/speed from the body and adds it (vector energy) to the planet.

I suppose the encounter with Saturn's mass didn’t alter the speed [much] and just redirected it for the most part.
That likely had a miniscule change of direction for Saturn as well.

That transfer of energy is why i don't think the space elevator notion has validity in physics
 
I think something big came through the Solar System early on. It either punched the Sun over by 7° or else it scattered the planets into a new orbital plane. It is not something that can be done from within a system, must be an outside influence. In this case, a big one.
Yes, that would be a good guess.

Is there a model that presents this? The one from Nice, France, a while back, was able to get a fair for all the planets. It shows a lot of dynamic activity but was not able to explain Pluto’s orbit.

Perhaps, however, the magnetic poles were off by 7 deg. during the formation period that included those strong bi-polar flows, which greatly diminished the Sun’s angular momentum.
 
Isn't the theory that the Sun was born in some sort of dense cloud of gas and dust that also created multiple other stars in much closer proximity than the Sun has to other stars today?
Yes, the fragmented cloud seems to have produced a stellar cluster of about 1,000 to 3,000 stars. The IMF (Initial Mass Fuction) reveals their mass distribution. It shows a few very massive stars were likely.

If so, there may have been multiple ways for the Sun and/or the Sun's protoplanetary disk to have been tilted by gravitational or physical collisions.
Yes, a simple accretion disk smoothly conveying mass onto the protosun is too simplistic, apparently.
 
Pluto is an aberrant. I think Pluto had its own encounter with a drive by shooter.

Whatever did the tilting of the Sun's axis to the ecliptic did it while keeping all of the planets in the same plane. I don't see how any foreign mass passing through the Solar System could tilt the ecliptic. I think it was the Sun that got tilted. The main problem in either case is the rarity of stars as compared to how big the universe is. Our Sun, if the size of a golf ball, would have it's nearest neighbor 600 miles away. How does one hit the other? I don't see how a collision could occur.

Perhaps, like you say, it is during star formation that somehow the magnetic fields do some redistribution of existing angular momentum. Sun gets a cockeyed field, its angular momentum goes one way, nascent dust cloud's goes the other way, net angular momentum is conserved.
 
Whatever did the tilting of the Sun's axis to the ecliptic did it while keeping all of the planets in the same plane. I don't see how any foreign mass passing through the Solar System could tilt the ecliptic. I think it was the Sun that got tilted. The main problem in either case is the rarity of stars as compared to how big the universe is. Our Sun, if the size of a golf ball, would have it's nearest neighbor 600 miles away. How does one hit the other? I don't see how a collision could occur.
If the Sun was born in a tight group with many other stars, those "golf balls" would be a lot closer together in your analogy.

And, I suspect that a protoplanetary disk tends to get flatter as it evolves into planets. Matter in the disk probably oscillates across the thickness of the disk , attracted back toward the central plane by gravity of the disk material, itself. That is the way stars behave in the galactic disk. As the planetary disk matter gets swept into planets, I would expect the disk to get thinner and the planets more aligned into a flat orbital plane.

So, if something tilted the orbit of a large planet relative to the evolving disk, such as a rogue planet escaping another star forming nearby, I think that could result in the large planet then imparting a tilt to the rest of the disk as it evolves and flattens.

Just a hunch, because I do not run simulations, myself.

But 7 degrees is not much. The Earth's magnetic field was tilted by more than that in 2001, but is now tilted by only about 3.6 degrees. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_magnetic_pole

With the Sun reversing its magnetic field every 11 years, it seems to me that its internal structure is not very rigid. Do we even know how its poles have moved over thousand of years?
 
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If the Sun was born in a tight group with many other stars, those "golf balls" would be a lot closer together in your analogy.

And, I suspect that a protoplanetary disk tends to get flatter as it evolves into planets. Matter in the disk probably oscillates across the thickness of the disk , attracted back toward the central plane by gravity of the disk material, itself. That is the way stars behave in the galactic disk. As the planetary disk matter gets swept into planets, I would expect the disk to get thinner and the planets more aligned into a flat orbital plane.

So, if something tilted the orbit of a large planet relative to the evolving disk, such as a rogue planet escaping another star forming nearby, I think that could result in the large planet then imparting a tilt to the rest of the disk as it evolves and flattens.

Just a hunch, because I do not run simulations, myself.

But 7 degrees is not much. The Earth's magnetic field was tilted by more than that in 2001, but is now tilted by only about 3.6 degrees. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_magnetic_pole

With the Sun reversing its magnetic field every 11 years, it seems to me that its internal structure is not very rigid. Do we even know how its poles have moved over thousand of years?
A belated but long comment. It would indeed have been good if the article gave a general explainer as both of you make some good arguments but are somewhat confused about the process of planetary system formation.

The key point here is that protoplanetary disk formation is due to non-gravitational effects. Gravity alone does nothing but keep objects on an orbit forever (well, apart from perturbations by other objects). However, in a collapsing cloud, objects cannot move freely for long: sooner or later, they will collide with other objects. There are collisions at the atomic level, which acts like friction; and once dust particles, meteoroids & asteroids form, there are macro-level collisions between solid (and liquid) bodies. There are also other non-gravitational effects (like magnetic fields, loss of moment via radiation) but collisions are the most important.

Now, which are the orbits on which collisions are the least likely? It's concentric near-circular orbits in the same plane. And that will be your end state if you start with a cloud of even a small asymmetry, because all the objects on elongated and inclined orbits are much more likely to collide.

For larger objects circling a star, gravity during close encounters also does play a significant role in changing orbits, but the overall effect runs opposite to collisions: the orbits become more diverse in inclination & eccentricity.

Disk formation is a case where order arises from random events. but, at the core, it's a random process, and never complete. Collisions (and close encounters) will be much less frequent in the less dense and slower-moving outer regions of the cloud, while close encounters between the much more numerous smaller objects and the much more massive larger objects tends to clear the inner regions and add even more objects on eccentric & higher inclined orbits to the outer regions, so these outer regions of the disc will be much less flat. There will be (much less frequent) collisions and close encounters even in the narrower parts of the disk even billions of years after the formation of the disc, and the collision debris will form new objects on eccentric and inclined orbits, but they won't stay there long, as they are likely to sooner or later suffer further collisions & close encounters.

For the purpose of what you have discussed, one possibility is that the difference between the Sun's axis and the axis of the Ecliptic it's just down to the randomness of the formation of the Solar System.

The instability of the magnetic pole of an object says very little about the instability of its rotational axis. The latter is based on the rotational motion of a lot more mass and there is the issue of the conservation of angular momentum. An object passing close to another will do almost nothing to its rotational axis. The most another object can do through gravity is create internal friction through tidal forces through a longer time when the two objects circle each other, which can slow down the rotation (while angular momentum is conserved by transfer from the rotating motion to the orbital motion), but this is a process on a timescale of millions to billions of years. This and similar processes can also change the rotational axis of a planet on longer timescales, but is unlikely to have affected the Sun (a much more massive object with a lot more angular momentum) a lot.

For the Sun's axis to change relative to that of the protoplanetary disk, a collision with another larger body would be a better possibility. However, this would have to occur very very early in the formation of the protoplanetary disk, because the orbits of the planets would be all over the place if a large intruder had passed through. The same applies to the possibility that the protoplanetary disc was perturbed by another star passing through and coalesced along a different plane. But, as you say, this would be much more likely with infant stars being placed much closer to each other when they form than they are in the Sun's vicinity now.
 
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I think the Sun’s tilt is an illusion. I think the planets lead the sun for half a rotation and then lag the sun for half a rotation. The tilt flip flops. Because the orbit is a helix. Not an ellipse.
I get the sense you don't even know the meaning of the words you use with such confidence...

The tilt is not an illusion, it's something fairly easy to observe.

All the planets lag behind the Sun's rotational motion because even the fastest planet, Mercury, takes more time to orbit the Sun than it takes for any region of the Sun's surface to rotate. Meanwhile, the different planets have very different orbital periods: Mercury's is just 88 days, Neptune's is 165 years.

Angular momentum is conserved, thus it's not a bad idea that the Sun's rotational characteristics (including its tilt angle relative to the plane of the planets) can change at the expense of an opposite change for the planets. However, the Sun is so massive and has such tremendous angular momentum that very little change can happen even on a timescale of billions of years.

A helix "orbit" is the combination of a circular motion an a perpendicular constant-speed straight motion. You don't say which object's orbit is supposed to be a helix and relative to what, but whatever you were thinking of, it has nothing to do with tilt angles.
 
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If a body runs through the trailing part of a moving planet's mass field it transfers inertia/speed to the body & subtracts it (vector energy) from the planet.

Conversely if a body runs through the leading part of a moving planet's mass field it subtracts inertia/speed from the body and adds it (vector energy) to the planet.

I suppose the encounter with Saturn's mass didn’t alter the speed [much] and just redirected it for the most part.
That likely had a miniscule change of direction for Saturn as well.

That transfer of energy is why i don't think the space elevator notion has validity in physics
You are referring to proper simplifications of gravity assists but it's delivered not quite correct. Let me try to untangle this.

There is no "mass field", there is a gravity field, and mass is the scalar quantity for the relative strength of an object's gravity field.

There is no such thing as vector energy in classical mechanics, energy is scalar. The vector quantities are velocity (speed in a certain direction) and momentum (velocity times mass).

What we have to consider here are special cases of the three-body problem. Special cases where the second body (a planet) is much less massive than the first (the Sun), the third (an asteroid) much less massive than the second, and the second and third orbit the first, and have a close encounter. The encounter will change the orbits of all three bodies, but of course the change to the first and second objects would be negligible relative to that for the third.

If you fix your frame of reference to the second object and only look at what happens in its vicinity, the encounter will be more or less symmetrical: you see the third object approach at almost constant speed and direction, then accelerate and curve towards you until the point of closest approach, then decelerate and get out of the curve, to recede at the same constant speed but in a different direction. However, if you look at the bigger picture from outside (in the "inertial system"), then the third object's velocity and even speed relative to the first object can be very different before and after the encounter. Here are some examples.

First, say the third object is on a circular orbit slightly inside that of the second, thus the close approach happens because it orbits slightly faster & catches up with the second. After the encounter, if it's relatively distant, the third object will be diverted outward & will still have almost the same slightly larger speed, resulting in an eccentric orbit going out beyond the second object's orbit.

Second, consider the opposite: a third object on a similar orbit but slightly outside that of the second. Then the close encounter happens when the second catches up with the third, the third will be diverted inward and still be slower than the second, resulting in an eccentric orbit going well inside that of the second.

Third, say the third object has an orbit around the first that is similar-shaped to that of the second but is retrograde (going in the opposite direction); and let's also assume that the approach is relatively close, close enough for the third object to make a 180-degree turn around the second. Then, unlike in the first two examples, the relative speed of the encounter is very large: twice the orbital speed of both objects. Consequently, the third object will leave the encounter in the same direction as the second object, but with three times the orbital speed. That would be well in excess of escape velocity (which is about 1.4 times the circular orbital speed), thus the third object would leave the system on a hyperbolic "orbit".
 
m4n8tpr8b, nice descriptions of orbital mechanics. Thank you. I don't disagree with anything you posted.

One comment is that a group of stars born close together from the same cloud of gas and dust, and forming planetary systems at the same time seems to have some interactions that could misalign things. For examples:

https://earthsky.org/space/passing-stars-warp-star-disks-disrupt-planets/

https://www.sci.news/astronomy/misa...disk-triple-star-system-gw-orionis-08813.html

https://public.nrao.edu/news/the-strange-orbits-of-tatooine-planetary-disks/
and

On the other hand, once a stable planetary disc is formed around a star that has been ejected from its "nursery", it would seem to take an impact on the star to tilt it to a different angle. Has anybody calculated what it would take in the way of another planet or failed star to tilt the Sun by 7 degrees with an impact? And, what would that do to the planetary disk alignment on the way into the Sun? Especially if it came in near enough to Jupiter to shift its orbital plane by several degrees. From Wikipedia:

"Most of the major bodies of the Solar System orbit the Sun in nearly the same plane. This is likely due to the way in which the Solar System formed from a protoplanetary disk. Probably the closest current representation of the disk is known as the invariable plane of the Solar System. Earth's orbit, and hence, the ecliptic, is inclined a little more than 1° to the invariable plane, Jupiter's orbit is within a little more than ½° of it, and the other major planets are all within about 6°."

The third thought that comes to my mind is whether the Sun's rotational axis wobbles in any way. Have we been observing the Sun closely enough for long enough to have empirical evidence that there is no significant change to its rotational parameters. Theory doesn't seem to suggest that there should be any, but theories are incomplete, and we have often needed to change them as we observe things we did not predict.
 
A planet crosses the sun’s plane twice per orbit. For half an orbit the planet is above the plane. That’s leading the sun. And for half the orbit…..below the sun’s plane, lagging the sun. The sun travels perpendicular to it’s plane.

The sun does not change it’s tilt, the planets change their tilt…..as they orbit. What ever the sun’s tilt is, the planets orbits tilt on that tilt. Planets are the tiltee. The sun is the tilter.

As a planet orbits, it makes a smaller rotation as it orbits. That one smaller rotation it pulled and stretched into one rotation around the sun. The alternation of above plane and below plane is a rotation, not an ellipse. Not a 2D arc. It’s one small rotation stretched and forming one large rotation.

The orbit is a superposition of one rotation, stretched into another rotation. TWO perpendicular rotations from ONE motion.

Think about that. A rotation inside a rotation from one motion. Think about that again. One axle perpendicular and rotating around another axle. The unobserved and undetected axle. A circular axle. Oblivious to the sun’s or the earth’s rotation. This unseen motion can now be seen in the moons of Jupiter and Saturn's moon systems, leaving trails in debris fields. The history of these trails form torus debris fields themselves around the mother planets. And since then torus debris fields have been found for all planets, only Mercury’s doesn't last long.

A one turn spring formed into a circle. This dynamic allows external gravitational forces to be countered and reflected, and remain in it’s orbit. A planetary orbit is a gravity shock absorber. Any change in any rotation is countered by a reflected change in the other rotation. The momentum of both rotations yo-yo every ½ orbit. The earth falls for six months and then rises for six months.

The earth and the planets will remain in orbit when another star passes by. If you pluck or remove a planet, the other planets will remain in orbit. Just as earth has thru the eons.

I believe we understand very little about gravity.

The simulations keep telling us that.

Our gravity equations can not describe a simulated simple system. The math does not match the motion.

And we can not match gravity theory to the motion of galaxies. Without invention. Of an undetectable mass entity. And new undetectable forces. And a spongy space to hold on to a failed gravity theory.

Without constant length and time, there can be no measurement, or definition that has any meaning.

Look how fractured cosmology is. The next Webb, the next high power instrument will fracture it more. It will not resolve ANYTHING.

Time will tell. If any meaning clears up.
 

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