Sending food to Mars and the Moon

[willpittenger]

Will we need to send all the food the astronauts need on a mission to Mars? Or will growing food on Mars (and enroute) be practical for even the early missions? What about longer lunar missions? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[scottb50]

I would think more experimentation would be needed, which is precisely what the ISS facility is for, before we could count on enroute food production. So far from what I have seen there are few limitations, but long term exposure might have effects not observed with the limited experiments done.<br /><br />Who knows maybe three of for generations of wheat grown in Space could develop a problem, not a good thing to discover at Mars. Not that anything I have seen would make me think that, just I haven't seen enough exposure to disprove it. The fact bacteria has been reported to become more potent would lead me to wonder if higher organism might be affected over time also.<br /><br />I also think, for an initial Mars mission, the safest means would be taking everything needed for a round trip with no thought of either growing food, producing return propellants or other consumables enroute or on Mars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

Scottb50 has covered it well. I looked at sending the food on initial missions and actually used TV dinner sized containers to base my arithmetic on. How many dinners for a crew of 5 or in later missions, 6. All this for the graphic novel of course.<br /><br />As the mars base becomes well established. Various methods for a food consumption, growth cycle can be researched. The moon would ironically enough, probably be reliant on food supplied from earth for a longer period than mars simply because the distance to send the supplies is so much shorter. Once it becomes more economical to grow food on the moon than to ship to...then the lunar base will transition to home grown lunafood. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[spacester]

Agreed, for the most part. At a minimum, you'll want to grow fresh veggies for dinner. Depending on your garden to feed you is suicide BUT you should try to work things so that there is a benefit to the program if food production indeed goes well.<br /><br />Simply put, you would always keep an x-year supply of food for the given population level. If you produce enough of what you eat, these stores would not need replenishing at the same level. They would represent emergency rations.<br /><br />The key is to be flexible, so that your group can react to actual results. Presumably they would benefit from eating a lot of fresh produce, so there would be another impetus for success.<br /><br />What I think is important about space food is the transition from individually packaged, highly processed meals to the preparation of group meals from scratch ingredients. The sooner that transition is made, the sooner we can be called space-faring.<br /><br />The key to wanting scratch ingredients isn't just to make tasty space food. The idea is to turn foodstuffs into a commodity instead of a specialty item. There needs to be a different value attached to food than to, say science equipment, but at $10,000 per pound it's all the same. <br /><br />For there to be actual economic activity up there, stuff needs to be priced differently, without the shipping cost swamping the intrinsic value. A Co2 scrubber should be worth more per pound than dinner.<br /><br />To achieve this, the obvious path is to build transportation systems that can send commodities up cheaper but perhaps less reliably, with a harsher acoustic and body force environment. Pancake mix can handle a rough ride. <br /><br />Cheap rockets should be used to get the food up there.<br /><br />There also needs to be an on-orbit distribution system. <br /><br />(edit: 'If you produce enough of what you eat' was 'If you eat enough of what you produce' ) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[scottb50]

I like the food synthesizer, convert energy to matter. They were doing it in the sixties on Star Trek for gods sake! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacester]

Drink synthehol? No way! <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[scottb50]

Scotty always had a bottle of the real thing. Besides that with a synthesizer you could just as easily produce the real stuff as syhthethol. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Can I make business of supplying food to mars?

 

[holmec]

Whether we grow or we send, we still have to send it all!<br /><br />A plant takes nutrient from the soil. We don't know if Martian soil will support plants, or what plants it will support. So we would have to send the soil as well.<br /><br />Either way we are still sending it all. Not to mention water.<br /><br />Sending water, that's your real headeache.<br /><br />If we want to know if the Martian soil will support plants beforehand, we would have to send a robotic green house mission to Mars. And try to grow several plants with the Martian soil.<br /><br />But on the flip side you don't always need soil to grow plants. Hydroponics doesn't use soil. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[summoner]

There are too many organics in soil that plants require to be healthy. Hydroponics will be an absolute must for insitu food supplies. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <br /><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:271px;background-color:#FFF;border:1pxsolid#999"><tr><td colspan="2"><div style="height:35px"><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/htmlSticker1/language/www/US/MT/Three_Forks.gif" alt="" height="35" width="271" style="border:0px" /></div>

 

[j05h]

Nitrogen can be fixed by legumes grown in Mars simulant with Rhyzobia and other symbiotics. Below is a link to a paper on this. The beans create enough fixed nitrogen to grow at similar levels to Earth-soil grown beans. <br /><br />The unanswered questions in the paper are what the multiple-inoculant plant growth numbers indicate and how well the plants would have fruited. They only took the study to 45 days with the beans at full flower. This would be ideal for creating green-manure on Mars, but not how well it makes actual beans. <br /><br />MARTIAN SOIL PLANT GROWTH EXPERIMENT: THE EFFECTS OF ADDING NITROGEN, BACTERIA, AND FUNGI TO ENHANCE PLANT GROWTH - LPRI PDF<br /><br /><i>> A plant takes nutrient from the soil. We don't know if Martian soil will support plants, or what plants it will support. So we would have to send the soil as well.<br />Either way we are still sending it all. Not to mention water.<br />Sending water, that's your real headeache. </i><br /><br />From the above, it appears that Mars soil simulant and Mars light levels are acceptable for crop production. All it requires is seeds and starter microbes in a greenhouse.<br /><br />Water is available in many places on Mars. The only water that needs to travel to Mars is potable water for the flight out. <br /><br />I'm all for a mini-greenhouse on Mars. Nothing like ground truth to answer the remaining questions. The problem is that realistically, as soon as people send plants and microbes to Mars, terraforming has started. <br /><br />On the larger question of food needs - it just isn't a big problem. A lifetime's supply (~40 years since we are sending adults) of freeze-dried Mountain House food is between 9 - 15t, but bulky. Just add water and heat. F <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[samkent]

Getting seeds to sprout isn't a problem. But what about pollination?

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Water is available in many places on Mars. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />But most lightly it won't be attainable.<br /><br />nice post though. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

You're not worried about being caught DUI after drinking loads of your favorite alcoholic beverage? Let's see: Synthehol or 5 years in jail, $20,000 fine, and your driver's license suspended for life? Take your pick. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>What I think is important about space food is the transition from individually packaged, highly processed meals to the preparation of group meals from scratch ingredients.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Better put your kitchen into a centrifuge. I don't want to know how granular and powdered products like sugar and flour would behave in 0g. However, I figure sending ingredients might be more efficient and popular (with the crew) than completed ready-to-eat meals. However, do the Army's MREs sound like they would work in space as a backup? Or would we need to adapt them for 0g. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

One thing I see is that longer Lunar missions would mean longer times between resupply missions. So you either need more food on hand or to start growing some -- unless someone starts a diet. Lunar diet anyone? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>what about pollination?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Three choices:<li>Rely on wind pollinated plants<li>Supply some pollinators like bees and hummingbirds (some species have flower parts that put the pollen on the bird's head)<li>Use cuttings rather than breeding</li></li></li> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The problem is that realistically, as soon as people send plants and microbes to Mars, terraforming has started.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Not really. If the system uses a system like what was installed at the Biosphere 2 (and it actually works), I doubt the outside environment would change at all. If it did change, it was because something broke or there was a leak. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I was assuming hydroponics all along if we grow food anywhere off the Earth. No point in dragging soil along. While we would have to add nutrients to the water used by the hydroponic system, otherwise we would be adding fertilizers and/or changing out the soil constantly. I figure hydroponics come out ahead. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I also think, for an initial Mars mission, the safest means would be taking everything needed for a round trip with no thought of either growing food, producing return propellants or other consumables enroute or on Mars.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Personally, if we send a robotic mission to Mars to generate consumables and propellants and we make sure the tanks are full before we leave, we should be fine assuming we don't need to drag all that with us to Mars. That would allow for a smaller ship. If the robot is having troubles filling the tanks for some reason, we cancel the trip or use a bigger ship and ignore what the robot made (or rather failed to make). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[docm]

That or you send an big damned tank full of MRE's <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

willpittenger:<br />One thing I see is that longer Lunar missions would mean longer times between resupply missions.<br /><br />Me:<br />Good point. Even the current Constellation program envisions only two shots per year IIRC. If NASA eventually builds a base, sooner or later the base crews will probably start to develop moonpies and other lunar foods. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Come to think of it, I think they make moonpies here on earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[usn_skwerl]

moonpies? mmm!!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

I must have uploaded my reply while you were modifying your link. My reply came after your moonpie post now its before. Those were the ones I was thinking of, Lol. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>